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This makes me unreasonably mad.

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Posted

I kind of want to make a video or some kind of essay strongly urging women to break out of socially acceptable hobbies and professions. Like come on, there's so much potential to be had here in furthering the human race.

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Posted

Why, though? It wouldn't really be "furthering the human race" or "progress". It would be a person trying to have another group conform to his plans for them. That's what the Fox reporters are trying to do.

A woman doing a socially unacceptable thing isn't more meritorious, brave, or progressive than a woman doing socially acceptable things. It just suits your plan for them. People will just do what they want for themselves.

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Posted

When we start "rewarding" people for breaking societal norms (whatever those mean to you), then a weird gray area is created. I would prefer people do what they're comfortable with and what they like. Trying to coax people into breaking societal norms in order to fit some idea of an "advanced" society is arguably more fascist than letting societal norms play out for themselves.

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Posted

Once, I went to a programming contest. Despite probably being the most experienced person there, I locked up when one of our programs was having some mysterious bug and we ended up losing to the only all-girl team. In fact, I think they were the only girls in the whole competition. I admit I silently celebrated them slightly harder than I would have applauded for an all-male team; I really enjoy seeing women in computer sciences, and it somewhat disappoints me that their numbers have been in decline for some reason, since the 80's. I wasn't patronizing them; our team lost, plain and simple. There wasn't a handicap. I almost wanted to look at their code and discuss with them, just because they won. I don't reward women programmers in anything but in slightly more respect and in the hopes that they will continue in the field, and I can't think of any reward society would particularly give men and women for taking up gender-atypical professions other than appreciation.

 

Rather than that, it's more emphasizing that there are more things in the world to do than socially acceptable professions. Society makes a person do crazy things, including stray away from something if it doesn't fit in with what's socially acceptable. I'm not saying we should reward people for breaking norms, I'm saying exactly what you are. People should do what they like. What I mean is that I don't think the thought even occurs to some people that their choices aren't limited to this or that; that they limit what they can like, and I don't think we're at the point where that isn't an issue yet. I've met women who don't think in large enough terms, and restrict themselves simply because they are women, or that there is some kind of assumption forced by the environment we live in, and that's frustrating.

 

When I said we should focus on furthering the human race, I was more referring to engineering, mathematics, and science-related professions. Thankfully they're more gender-neutral professions, but I think that we should all just have a sense of wonder that is tied to the future of our species, or the furthering our knowledge, rather than an exclusive outlook about relatively inconsequential things like whether or not we were born with a certain set of organs. Maybe this is a set of expectations (not quite as cynical and set-in-stone as a "plan") but it's for all people to just kind of look outside the cards that they're dealt and realize that we're not playing a game. There isn't a set of rules to follow. There's no cheating. We're all human beings, and there are only very specific things we're restricted in; mostly physical. There shouldn't be an "I don't think I could do that" or "I don't want to think about it". The world is broad, and we have the accumulation of all the knowledge and struggles of the people that came before us, a legacy that allows us to do what we want in life that isn't necessarily about penis vs. vagina. So we should look at all the options we can and make sure we're making the right choices for ourselves.

 

Ideally, I'd want people to have the mentality that there is yet magic left in the universe, that we should all be thinkers and yearn for knowledge and self-improvement. That we're all given our senses, a brain to interpret them, and hands to guide, and that we should put them to use as much as we can in grasping and doing the things that we want to do. We should think about what's next for ourselves and for the planet, and for each other, and we should all realize that we only have one somewhat brief span of time to do everything we can and accomplish and learn as much as possible. I believe thinking like that naturally sets the bar a little higher. I'm not saying that everyone in certain professions has this mentality, but I feel that we don't give ourselves enough credit as human beings. A person can be great in any field he or she chooses to be in, and it can be fashion,or welding, or nursing or, construction, or whatever, regardless of gender, as long as there's effort and passion put into it, but that we should make sure we know enough to make the right choice, rather than just following the templates of past generations.

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Posted (edited)

 I've met women who don't think in large enough terms, and restrict themselves simply because they are women, or that there is some kind of assumption forced by the environment we live in, and that's frustrating.

 

Large enough for whom? Frustrating for whom? For a person who is looking from the outside, judging that woman, not the actual woman.

 

They are doing what they want. To say "No, no, you aren't doing what YOU want, you are doing what SOCIETY wants!" is kind of frustrating.Or writing off a person's choices and claiming that they are making them out of ignorance. I would be annoyed if someone told me that to my face. I think the attitude that you are explaining is really self-righteous (no offense). It reminds me of a crusader or missionary who is going to go save a group of perfectly happy people "from themselves". They see a group of functioning people and they have some strange urge to go "enlighten" them (which really means to sculpt them in their own image).

 

The same thing still happens today in America. There are people in power who look as groups of people, shake their heads, and then try to save them from themselves. For example, forbidding restaurants from serving anything larger than a 20 oz. cup in New York. Or a person trying to "preserve" the meaning of marriage by protesting gay marriages.

 

In short, I just think that there's no true definition of "progress", there's only tweaking outcomes and trying to change the world in your own image. No single person's motives have ever been aligned perfectly with "progress". Another example: Public schooling in urban areas over a hundred years ago wasn't created because an "advanced" person wanted to enlighten the masses with basic math and grammar. It is an established fact that public schooling was created mainly to "Americanize" the children of immigrants.

 

I do agree that a person can do whatever they want, regardless of what "society" says because "society" is just a word that means whatever you want it to mean. Most of the time, as an excuse or a crutch. This is why I don't see the point in celebrating people who do what they want. A person who does what they want that's in-line with "society" is just as meaningless as a person who does what they want that may not be in-line with a societal norm. Both instances are people doing what they want. One isn't more real than the other, nor is it more meritorious.

It is no one's job, especially not a self-righteous or guilty government, to try and tweak "society" in order to shape it to some outcome. I think that natural social interaction and education are a lot more adept as working out problems (or what an overly-concerned self-righteous person would call a problem) than people believe. I believe in educating people. But that's it. Not educating people in hopes that their beliefs align with your plan for them. But simply educating a person. Like I said, tweaking a person's societal role is more fascist than letting it play out naturally.

Edited by ∟ ∟ (see edit history)

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Posted

I'm saying that people should be educated enough to know what they want to do, rather than being restricted by a notion that what they can do is limited based on their genders. Letting things play out naturally is also contradicting, because in the progression of things, any tip one way or the other causes conventions, norms, cliques, groups. Things aren't evenly spread. They clump. People gravitate towards preconceived notions and familiar aspects, regardless of what they are. I'm not saying to interfere and actively go against norms, but I think that it would be better if the environment was better suited so that people didn't necessariily pursue goals that are based on outside interference from what they really want to do, and to get a clearer image of that, you have to throw away certain assumptions and examine your options carefully.

 

Whereas missionaries and colonizers force a belief on someone to better suit their images, I'm saying that I would rather people think critically about their positions and what they want to do, what they want to accomplish, without relying on previously established trends to direct them where they want to go, not necessarily where I want them to go. And your argument is based on the notion that things are playing out naturally right now, and they aren't. We may be a first world country, but it's not like gender biases aren't apparent. Something as seemingly trivial as marketing boils down certain mentalities into binary traits based on gender roles. It's all white noise that subtlely influences everything around us.

 

And if you're going to argue that wanting people to take more initiative in their choices regardless of gender is more restricting, then there's no argument to be had here; you could claim that I'm messing up something simply by wanting it to change. Anything. And using the word fascist is really kind of extreme, and carries negative connotations, yeah? On a relative scale based on how "fascist" something is, you could compare any two things and make one sound infinitely worse than the other. Like saying Germans are more Nazi than Americans, simply because the Nazi party was widespread in Germany and not in the US, even though people of German heritage aren't necessarily or by majority, Nazis. It's misleading and derogatory. I don't like being compared to fascists, and I am not a fascist, nor do I subscribe to their ideals, so do not compare me to one. I don't understand how wanting to write an essay or do a video on how women don't always have to do "womanly" things makes me a fascist.

 

What I'm saying is that the way our society operates, that there are subtle biases that sway our thinking, and I want people to be informed enough to know that we don't have to follow a guideline based on our genitals. I may appreciate those who like doing things that aren't typical in profession, but this is a personal thing I can't really help but do, because in my eyes, I see something that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you're a guy, and that it's for some reason been saturated with them despite there being evidence that it wasn't always this way and never necessarily had to be. Like hey, you're an exception to this weird thing that's happened, and I appreciate you for that. It's a feeling I can't help, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. To me it's like finding a four leaf clover. They're somewhat rare in comparison to three leaf clovers, though they're not necessarily better or worse than them, but we appreciate them nonetheless.

 

My stance is one of providing options. For instance, someone whose diet is bad might want to consider than meat doesn't have to be the main course. There are other foods, and there's nothing that particularly makes them better or worse; it all depends on what you want out of what you eat. It's the same way with hobbies, interests, media, and in this case, professions. If you think you like people enough to take care of them, you can work in a nursing home. If you think you want to make robots, work in the field of robotics. These don't have an "only for people of this gender" label on them. I want people to clearly understand that they don't have to follow a template, not that the template is completely out of the question.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with you. I wasn't calling you a fascist, I was saying that coaxing people was controlling. You've elaborated more on your stance now and I think we have the same opinions, more or less.

I just really don't believe in statements that contain "people should" because it is just a person imposing their ideas on others. Right or wrong, it is imposing.

It's hard to not appreciate novelty. I mean things that are rare are generally valuable. But also some cultures may call those novelties an anomaly. The Fox guys who seem to appreciate uniformity are just reacting in their own way to what they are perceiving as an anomaly.

Edited by ∟ ∟ (see edit history)

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Posted

I've never heard a good argument for or against gender roles. The people professing gender roles seem to be generally happy with the circumstances. Same for the people breaking away from them. Is one more right? Probably. But that's hard to really decide without some major insight that NO ONE on planet earth has.

The only time it becomes a problem is when one group encroaches on the other, like everything else.

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Posted (edited)

And the Fox guys really aren't encroaching. Just like a woman earning money isn't encroaching on anything.

"People should..." Statements are the closest to encroachment that you can get on this topic. Like most things, there's nothing really to discuss. Just opinions derping around each other.

Edited by ∟ ∟ (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

Grumpy men stuck in their ways with how they were raised and believe that anyone who live differently are wrong.

This is what I interpreted from this video.

As long as the children are being provided for and are in a stable environment, there isn't a problem with a family. I don't see what getting huffy about other people's lives can do to improve their own. :/

Edited by Ezlo (see edit history)

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Posted

here is another thing about Gender Roles (i think thats wut this thread was about, i kinda forget). Ignore the commentator, he's kinda annoying. His co-hosts (not in this video) make his channel bearable lol.

 

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Posted

This thread is about getting mad and making yourself mad, but you tell us to ignore the commentator because he's annoying. It's funny to me

People might accidentally misplace their anger points in the wrong category. You're supposed to be getting mad at nameless Republican!

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Posted

I mean I obviously have no problem with the commentator since i, you know, subscribe to his channel. I just think his jokes are a bit.... meh. I wanted to share the video to focus on the republican guy spewing gender role bs. 

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