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An Apology (and realization)

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I want to say I'm sorry, because I unintentionally misled my friends on here. I didn't know better at the time, but that isn't a good excuse. Like most people, I was spouting what I had been taught, without much question. 

 

As a child, I always believed in God. I can't recall a time when I didn't. However, church, the concept of hell, and the seemingly different nature of a wrathful God and a forgiving God in the Old and New Testament, respectively, didn't sit well with me. They never have, and they still don't. 

 

Why would a God, who is the embodiment of love, torture and punish people forever? It has never made sense to me, and I've always either hid it in the back of my mind, or dismissed the notion entirely. When it came up in debates, I would usually point to it being the person's choice to choose to go to hell by disbelieving in Christ. Why anyone would choose it upon finding out that eternal damnation does exist, I have no idea. But that was my reasoning to explain away a hypocritical God. 

 

I've done a lot of reading and soul-searching since then, and I've figured some things out. It's complicated, but please bear with me as I try to explain what has changed in me.

 

Like I said, I've always had an issue with hell. After some intense studying and searching, I came across some sites that put the literal hebrew and greek interpretations next to the modern interpretations. It turns out, there's a lot that's changed.
 
First, there is no concept of an eternal soul in the Bible. Keep in mind, Spirit and soul are not interchangeable in this instance, they are different words with different meanings in the original Hebrew text. You will not find "immortal soul" anywhere in the Old Testament. Similarly, "hell," as it as been interpreted today, is nowhere in the Bible. There were actually 4 different words for hell, none of which describing an eternal fire. Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus. The Christian "hell" is a some combination of these. 
 
"Sheol" means "the grave," which the King James translators wrongly translated to sometimes mean "hell." Conveniently, they only did this when it didn't pertain to God's people. The Israelites believed all people would go to "sheol." Do you think they meant grave, or hell? I'm assuming the former.
 
"Gehenna," also known as the Valley of Hinnom, is probably where most people derived their "fire and brimstone" version of hell from. It was a dumping ground for dead bodies that burned continuously outside of Jerusalem. It is a literal place that is filled with suburban homes today, lol. The bodies were burned continuously to avoid infection. Usually criminals and very sick people were burned there.
 
"Hades" is actually a pagan version of hell where souls go when they die. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the concept of hades. It's a Greek word, but they got it from the Egyptians "amenti," who probably got it from someone else. Dante's Inferno is a great interpretation of the Greek hades.
 
"Tartarus" is a place to punish angels. Humans are never said to go there anywhere in the Bible, by any translation.
 
Now that we have a better understanding of hell, and what it really is, we can apply this to Christian doctrine. Christians believe in a version of hades, which is from the Greeks, who got it from the Egyptians, etc. Why don't Christians believe in a hell inspired by Hebrew beliefs? They didn't have a hell! The original Hebrew text only used "sheol" which means the grave. It was later interpreted by the KJV translators to sometimes mean "the grave" and sometimes "hell." Why? To keep in line with what they'd been taught to believe!
 
Amenti begot hades, which begot hell. Nowhere in the New Testament, the one that WE Christians are supposed to follow, do the apostles warn of an eternal fire. 
 
I feel like such a moron, because it's been right in front of my face this whole time, and I've either ignored it, or pushed it aside, choosing instead to believe that a Catholic church couldn't be wrong about the most important thing, right? Salvation? Right? Turns out, almost ALL Christian churches, Catholic and Protestant, are wrong. 
 
Jesus Christ didn't die to save us from an eternal hell.
 
Jesus Christ died to save us from our sins (today!).
 
I'm going to pull from a website called mercifultruth.com. If you have some time, definitely go and read what he has to say about salvation.

Because, as you will see in the following sections about "hell" and Christ's parables, they think God's judgments nullify the purpose of His Son's Cross! They have no idea that God judges the earth BY the Cross rather than being counter-productive to it. Most Christians have no faith that that when God's judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness. We saw this in Part One:

Isaiah 26:9-10 
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousnessLet favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD.

Here is where warning comes in. God has no intention to show favor to the wicked. He would rather them "learn righteousness." According to this scripture, the way for the wicked to learn righteousness and "behold the majesty of the lord" is through judgment. This is why the Bible both warns people about judgment and tells us to rejoice in his judgment.

Christ is not dual-minded. The judgment upon his literal flesh will come upon the world spiritually, and for some people, that will not be too pleasant. You will see what the scripture has to say about that soon enough. Nevertheless, God claims ultimate superiority over man in his ability to realize everything he has planned for the world.

Isaiah 46:9-11 
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that...will...I...do.

What God plans and purposes, he will make it happen. Do Christians believe that? Actually, no. They reason that God WANTS to have the world saved, but must bend to the will of stubborn sinners who refuse to believe in him. Really? Is that what you get in reading the above scripture? He says his purpose will stand and he will do ALL that he pleases. Do you agree?

Such simple statements like those above should give those Christians pause about their doctrines. Who is in charge here? God or man? The Bible proves that EVERY TONGUE will swear an oath to God that in him alone they have righteousness. Read it for yourself.

Isaiah 45:22-25
Turn to me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is none else. I have sworn by myself and the word has gone out of my mouth and shall not return, that unto me, that every knee shallbow, and every tongue shall swear (Hebrew - shaba - take an oath). Surely shall one say, "In the Lord I have righteousness and strength." Even to him shall men come, and all that are incensed against himshall be ashamed.

The word "one" in the King James Version of this scripture is absent in the translation, which is why it's crossed out above. The New International Version (NIV) takes account of this and translates it this way"Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength."

That's right, regarding the phrase "turn to me and be saved all ye ends of the earth," everyone is going to make this oath. This simple prophecy says it all, but it certainly doesn't jibe with what Christianity teaches. The resulting teaching on a verse like this will be to square a circle. To force it not to say what it plainly says.

Here is where the warning comes in: those who are incensed against him shall come and be...(eternally tortured?)....be ashamed. Oh, they will swear the oath. Every tongue will. But they will have to be humbled first. Every Christian ought to know that salvation goes hand in hand with being humbled. The very idea of confessing that Jesus is Lord is a humble response to belief in Christ.

As you saw in Part One, King Nebuchadnezzar knew all about being humbled. He knew all about being judged by God, and ashamed, bowing his knees and confessing with his tongue God's supremacy over mankind. Grace for the humble. Resistance for the proud. Both will produce God's purpose in the Cross for the world. Watch how Paul understood this great event.

Romans 14 10-11
Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

The judgment seat of God will accomplish the humbling, and bowing of knees, and swearing of oaths to God for every human being. Think about that Great White Throne. By the time you finish reading this paper, you will understand how that great day of judgment will produce this response in people, especially considering that crucifixion of the flesh is the judgment of the world.

 

 
THIS makes so much more sense. I implore you to go read the rest. Why has a God of eternal punishment and cruelty not ever made sense to me? Because that God doesn't exist!
 
God wants everyone to be saved. So, everyone will be saved. Whether through grace or by punishment. And the punishment isn't an eternal fire of hatred and evil, it is a measurable, just punishment. Mainly it seems our punishment is what we do to ourselves, not what God does to us. He simply gives us over to our own evil desires. After we have been sufficiently broken down and humbled, and we cry out to him, that is when we will be made new.
 
Jesus is trying to save us all from that right NOW, in our daily lives. The kingdom of God is NOW, and the only way to true "Life" is through Christ. He wants us to cast off our sins and live in the kingdom right in our daily lives. We don't have to wait till the afterlife to be free from sin. We can do it today. Right now. The kingdom of heaven is at hand, because it is going on as we speak. Our bodies are a temple, and Christ will reside in them if we ask. "Church" is not a physical place, but a spiritual one, that all true believers are a part of. It's a connection that forms a spiritual body.
 
Everyone will be saved eventually, but those who choose to believe and profess freely, those who choose to cast off sin, pick up their cross, and follow Christ, will be called "sons of God" and will be elite in the coming eons. They will reign with Christ over all the others, who will come into his kingdom after they have been humbled and profess that he is Lord. 
 
THAT's what the apostles were warning about. They don't want people to experience the shame/brokenness of their own evil filth and desires. 
 
The Prodigal Son parable is the perfect example of this.
 
A father (God) has two sons. One son (the righteous) helps his father and does everything that is asked of him. The other son (the sinner/unbeliever) doesn't want to work on the farm with his family. The prodigal son then goes to his father and asks for his inheritance, which his father gives him. Then the son precedes to waste it all on wild parties and lewd living. Eventually, he is forced to sell himself as a worker and cannot even feed himself. He often longs for the food that is fed to the pigs. Eventually, he wakes up and realizes how foolish he has been, that his father's servants always had food to eat. He gets up and goes to his father, willing to offer himself as a servant to his father in exchange for food. Instead, the father greets his son with open arms and slaughters the fattest calf in celebration of his arrival. The righteous son is angry with the father, saying "I've worked with you all these years and never left! Why do you celebrate him, when he's been gone all this time?!" The father replies, "Son. You know that I love you and all that I have is yours. But your brother was once lost and is now found."
 
In this way, unbelievers will go through a similar process of pride, then shame. They will eventually be brought into understanding, through God's reprimands. 
 
God calls us to shed sin today, so that we may avoid this process, for sin leads to death and all kinds of evil desires. Instead, we are to put on the armor of Christ and live righteously, so that we may be purified in mind and spirit while our body is destroyed in death. God will raise those elect saints and they will serve as judges in the coming ages. 
 
Also, the narrow gate that Jesus is referring to is this very process. Few people will choose to give up their lives in true service to God and other people. Most will not bother with it and will enter into the wide gate, which leads to punishment for your sins and eventual reconciliation. 
 
Keep in mind that Christ's death on the cross was the most integral part to all of this. Christ could not conquer death for us if he were not able to do so for himself. Christians are so close to the truth, but still seem to fall short due to false teachings of the antichrists. 
 
Anyway, I just wanted to apologize again for misleading you, as I have never had any intention of doing so. I always believe what I post, you can be sure of that. I love you guys and I can't tell you how relieved I am to come to the realization that I will see each and every one of you again with purified spiritual bodies.
 
Anyway, God bless <3
 
-Oh, a little p.s.- I was right in thinking that we actually, literally die. People aren't watching over you from heaven. You will definitely die. But Christ will raise us from the dead, so no worries there. It's not like you're going to have any feelings or emotions during death because, well, you're dead. So you won't realize you're dead. You'll just be dead.
 
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I think a common interpretation of Hell that I've seen around, an interpretation that isn't as literal as others, is simply absence from God. If I was a Christian, absence from God is what I would identify as Hell. No afterlife filled with suffering and pain, Hell is God not being a part of my life. I find this kind of definition a lot easier to reconcile with commonly held beliefs about repentance and accepting Christ as the way to Christian Salvation, because, it is very literally the only way. If being with God, in heaven or Earth, is being pure and reborn, hell is simply the absence of God. Not something you need to necessarily be stuck in forever, though I guess if you died rejecting God you would be, but it wouldn't matter to you anyway as you rejected Him. In terms of stories such as Satan turning people away from God, I think it makes sense, Satan will lead you to hell, Satan is in my eyes the darkness and sin that resides in everyone, and it will turn you away from God (Hell).

 

I dunno, it's something I think about often, I'm a religious studies student and it's one of my favourite subjects.

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Can we comment on this? Like can we give our input? I don't mean to sound rude or take away from your revelation.


edit: this still sounds rude. But don't take it that way, please.

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Absolutely. Please do. 

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I... accept your apology? Though I'm not really sure when if ever you've slighted me, or us, due to the lack of understanding this. I can't recall you ever threatening hellfire on any of us.

 

I think that this is a more healthy interpretation of your religious text, and that a lot of people in your faith might benefit for believing it as well.

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I never threatened it, but I misrepresented what Christ came to accomplish and THAT is really what I find most shameful. This is an extremely personal thing, because I've struggled all my life with church. I'm always uncomfortable in church, specifically Catholic. I used to think that this was due to sin, and I would come to realize that they were right all along eventually, and I always doubted myself and my beliefs. 

 

I see now that the very foundation of the Catholic church is wrong. Everything I was taught as a child is wrong. God is not wrong. But I was, and the church is. I'm not just talking about Catholic churches, either. I have always absolutely despised popular televised evangelists, and now I now why. Most require a "tithe" of 10% or more of your income so they can abuse you and use your money for their own evil interests. 

 

They know nothing of a tithe's true purpose, or that a tithe doesn't even make sense today. The Truth is free.

 

They are worse than thieves.

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Well, it's cool that you've come to a more solid understanding of your own beliefs. No offense, but frankly, gullible people who are steadfast in their beliefs are exactly why religious organizations get away with those kinds of things. It's the major defunct, in my opinion, of religion. Because things are taken in faith, you can put a spin on things so that people stay faithful to that interpretation for your own intentions, without question or independent thought. I don't think most religious people I see actually study the literature that defines their beliefs, and even less of them probably interpret it themselves, opting instead for the popular way to view its content, like with the hell bit. I'm pretty sure that's why there are different sects, too.

 

While I don't subscribe to your beliefs, and flat-out, I would prefer we not have any religions at all, I wholeheartedly appreciate that you're willing to change your view to something that's more honest and personal. I don't think you should keep it to yourself. If you have Christian friends or when you're raising your children, you should make sure they know that what's accepted in society doesn't necessarily have an honest reasoning, and that they should be ready to change their views if it ever seems like something is amiss. Fact-checking has probably been the least favorite past-time of people trying to prove a point over the duration of human history. There's very rarely a single honest "truth" that perfectly describes a situation.

 

It's cool that you confronted your discomfort. You used a somewhat scientific method for defining what you believe, and you found a good result. It's like how history, being about past events, is very much based in interpretation, rather than in solid facts. Things can get embellished and twisted, so you need to look at the context surrounding everything before you can make a conclusion, because people can and will try to change those contexts. Religion or not, every person is fallible. Even this might all just be me patting you on the back because your views coincide with ones that sound more like mine; if you came to the realization that all infidels should be executed I would obviously be a lot less accepting. Anyway, my point is, I'm not the kind of person who wants to destroy your reality. Keep living it, live it well, and since you're very likely going to pass your traditions onto next generations, make sure these realizations count for something and contribute to a better world.

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My family is Catholic and after my brother's suicide, I think it must have changed how we felt about hell. Or there have been instances when I can read something on my mother's face when I mention something about hell or mention someone going to hell. (My mom asked me if I believed in God after I told a toddler that it wasn't going to heaven, lol.) But yeah, Catholicism is like THE religion where you go to hell for suicide. I don't know if I feel any differently, or if I feel anything at all about suicides and hell. I never had to have a stance on hell and suicides, and maybe I don't still. It didn't really change how I felt, I don't think, but it made me realize the fact that I never had a stance on those subjects. So maybe that is revealing in itself? 

 

Sahaqiel brings up a point that I only recently started to think about. I am fine having a nebulous view on religion (although that may be changing currently). But when raising a kid, or my kid, I don't know how I will feel about teaching certain spiritual or religious things to them. I would like to think that I'd be hands-off, but I am not sure. I wouldn't want to force my experiences on a kid, but maybe I have to do that a bit. Just seems really stressful. The decisions that I will come to aren't ones that I am looking forward to in the future. 

 

 

 

 

 

@Chase, you say that a punishment is what we do to ourselves. You said that we are "broken down and humbled". What do you specifically think of indulging in "sin"? Can you see sinning as a "ripening"? If a person is "lost and then found", then wouldn't it have more meaning that being "righteous"? I am starting to believe (or realizing that I have been believing) that maybe big highs and big lows are the only way for redemption to make sense. From a personal standpoint and from a religious standpoint. For a moral compass to even make sense, I think taboos, skepticism and "sinning" should be explored and indulged. I am not saying that people should do bad things even if they don't want to. I just believe that people can get lazy and misguided in their beliefs if they are only going through the motions. Example: In the same way that in war or after a war, you can see displays of rare good will and tolerance, I think that you have to hit your personal low before "good" can make any kind of sense. Tragedies and bad things shake people out of apathy and indifference. I attempted to get at this same concept in the Tumblr thread earlier, probably not to any success. 

 

In short, I think you have to be tempered in "evil" before you can see "good". Otherwise you are just repeating someone else's idea of "good". I am glad that you questioned your own beliefs, but I won't comment on them specifically because it's not my place. 

 

Also, the other day, Pheo, Sayuri and I watched Fight Club (a movie that I've seen you quote before). Bradley Pitt said that self-improvement is masturbation and then was like "but self-destruction...", implying that it was even better as his sentence trailed off. What do you think of that? I liked the line. I thought it was adequately relevant, at least to what I was attempting to get at. I have been reading a lot about spirituality through sin and bad stuff. So I apologize if this post is getting off topic. 

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Remember kids, if you don't sin, then Jesus died for nothing!

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Christianity really is the most tampered with religion in terms of doctrine, huh? Even in the original Hebrew Old Testament about half the stuff in there is just the religious interpretations of some famous events by the most influential persons in the priesthood at that time. Stuff like the book of Job is most likely just a creative work, someone's fictional story used to explain a part of life. And of course the creation myth is pure allegory; I've even heard it argued that everything before the book of Joshua that isn't a lawbook is too muddied by oral tradition to be considered accurate history. I think you've covered the New Testament pretty well, but I'll add that some people even go as far as to integrate Dante's Divine Comedy into their personal views on religion. Poor Dante is probably still rolling in his grave after all these years thanks to that sort of foolishness :sadlink:

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on children & religion

This is summarized and not very streamlined or detailed, because I'm in somewhat of a rush. These are just my personal experiences with religion as a child.

 

I've lived with a few different legal guardians when I was a small child, because my parents were going through a divorce. The first person I lived with was a woman named Shirley Peckum, and she was an older lady who would take me to Sunday School; I think her foster care was also some kind of preschooling. The New Testament she gave me is the thing I've owned the longest. Later I lived with a woman named Karen, who treated me like her own kid and cried when I was taken away. She chastised me for saying "Jesus Christ!" once. I was like 4. After that my religious experience fell solely with my stepmom, who was Catholic (as most Filipinos are) and she'd take me to the most mind numbingly boring part of my childhood, Mass. I was always questioning where everyone got the idea of writing some book and gathering in a big boring building and chanting in unison and talking about a magical place I'd never seen proof of where I'd be sent depending on whether I was good or bad, that no one else had ever really seen. It was always creepy to me.

 

Other than her, I had no pressing religious influence in my life. My dad is Christian, and steadfast in it enough to argue my Muslim half-brother out of the house, but he never pretended to tell me what to believe until recently, though I continued to believe in the Judeo-Christian god until early in high school, but after the Philippines, that belief was very shaky. I asked my mom why there was a huge cathedral that isn't even used everyday, with ceiling so high it could be three stories tall and house the homeless I kept seeing everywhere, yet they still ask for money. She never provided me with a satisfactory answer. I still think churches should be required to pay taxes. There's no reason they should get special treatment. But yeah, after I started questioning everything, including why so many people believe in so many different things, it just didn't add up. In my personal beliefs and introspections, life without gods is fine. We're not special. We just have to make the best out of what we have, like everyone does.

 

I feel like if everyone has a curious mind and a hands-off childhood, a lot more people would come to that conclusion. Some people do, but they haven't learned humility from suffering; not just personal suffering, but suffering around them. I don't wish suffering on people, but I think it's necessary to be well-rounded and truly appreciative.

 

When I was like 12, I decided that evil and good are pretty much necessary for each other, because without one, you have no standard to define the other. So I think yeah, if you don't really ever know hardship, you can't really appreciate what's good in your life. But everyone has their own measures of suffering, and everyone thinks they suffer. There's a big difference between someone who has actual, horrible problems, and is still kind and just, and a person who just has petty issues now and again and pretends to be kind and just.

 

I lived in the Philippines over a summer almost a decade ago, and I saw things that were pretty much horrible across the board, and it was a bad case of culture shock. I didn't immediately let those experiences change me, but in retrospect, it made my views on morality and gratitude a lot sleeker. Though I can't help but think that people here have problems over such petty things, and pretend they're the biggest problems in the world. The Philippines weren't even the worst you could get, and I wasn't even in the worst part of them, but I am pretty sure I suffered there, just from learning what it's like there. I don't ever bring it up as if to say "there are children starving" etc. etc. though I appreciate what I have, when I have it. I take peoples' problems in their respective contexts, and I don't judge them for it, or think that karma will afflict them somewhere down the line.

 

On that note, I don't think I ever believed in karma, because it's so ridiculously unbelievable to me. People take it to mean that other peoples' petty transgressions will be repaid, and I just don't get that; there are other, more real problems that deserve divine retribution. The world would be a lot different if it had karma. Some people live without real suffering and consequence. Some people live with only suffering.

 

On the topic, I've felt in the past to dismiss the people with horrifyingly narrow-minded and rigid views, thinking that one day, maybe, they'll learn what a real problem is, and they'll think for themselves about what really is right and wrong. But I have to tell myself that there's also a possibility that that will never happen.

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Like Chase, I'm also a Christian who's struggled, a lot, with aspects of my faith, particularly Hell and views on sexuality. Unlike Chase, I'm not Catholic and never have been. I was raised as a protestant without any particular denomination.

 

So over the years I've been told, and believe, that the only thing that should define Christian views is the Bible, and nothing else. No extraneous documents, laws, or dogma that aren't found in there. But even still, there are so many different interpretations to go on. I suppose my feeling on the issue are that, as long as the basic thesis statements of the faith, about Jesus selflessly dying for us and how we should treat everyone with love, don't change, the minutia doesn't matter, or at least shouldn't condemn us.

 

Anyhow, Hell has definitely been a big problem for me, especially with all of my non-christian friends. I'm definitely more pleased with the interpretation Chase brought up. And even more, the pastor of my regular church brought up not long ago the idea of the concept of Hell primarily being a form of seperation from God, as Ammonsa put it, so there is precedent in my life for accepting such a change of views. But on the other hand, I've known biblical/theological scholars for so long, including one of my uncles who has multiple very impressive degrees on the subject he's earned over the years, and so many of these people, who've also studied the original greek/hebrew and the translations from there, tell me that Hell is a literal fiery pit and that God absolutely 100% hates same-sex attraction/relationships. But then again, I've made up my own mind on religious subjects before and it'd be hypocritical for me to use that as an excuse to just "go with the flow."

 

So, yeah. I'm glad Chase has found this alternative view that looks, at least to me, as legitimate as any other if not more so.

 

Also, I agree with Sahaqiel that people need to experience suffering in order to become well-rounded individuals. But while It's necessary to go through trials to become a better person, history has shown those hardships don't always cause people to turn out better. I do like to think that most of the time, though, there's something to be gained from it all.

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This is a cool thread. I'd share my religious experiences, with which i still struggle with, but ive probably already bored most of you with it so lol. But yeah this is a cool read.

 

And on Sahaqiel and his "suffering creates a well-rounded person" i totally agree. There was this girl in my church who was SO sheltered that she literally thought that butt-sex was when you "kiss butts" (basically you rub your butthole on another's butthole to create a kiss... of butts) she also never heard of blow jobs or oral sex. These things had to be explained to her, a college student. But thats not the point. She was so sheltered and her family was so rich that she was just.... not a good or interesting person. She was nice and, you know, had all the qualities of a good person, but she was so boring and felt hollow almost? I unno. Like, she had a job, but it was working at the front desk at her father's doctor office for like, 3 days a week if that? And her parents bought her everything she wanted and needed, paid for her rent, etc, on top of paying her like, 12$ an hour. She didnt understand why her friends would struggle with money. She'd actually just pull out wads of cash from her purse and be like "here have some :>"

 

I unno, maybe im just jealous haha. But if you knew her you'd instantly know how /not/ to raise a child, for she is the result of super sheltering.

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I started looking up the traditional Jewish concepts of the afterlife as well as the origins for the words that are translated as 'Hell' in modern bibles. Quickly coming closer to Chase's levels of certainty that the traditional Christian idea of a fiery, you-can-never-leave Hell has no basis in the text.

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This is a really interesting thread. I guess I would identify myself as Non Religious, because religion doesn't have a large place in my life right now. Thinking back I guess this formed around Jr. high or so. I had been in a Wednesday church program in a very small town in southern Illinois, we're talking a population of 3000 here, and I really enjoyed it. It was this cool youth program, where me and some other kids would go upstairs and just sorta hang out and talk about stuff. It was led by this girl who was only 6 or 7 years older than us, and she was fantastic. Always had an answer for our questions, and she always did research before she got there. There were some things that I couldn't really reconcile myself with, but there was more good than bad in it, so I just pushed that stuff to the back of my mind. Anyways, then came the day we got the Harry Potter conversation. One of the dad's of the kids in the group came in and brought us all the shit about how Harry Potter is the devil, and you shouldn't read it or you'll go to hell. He took it a few steps further, he started talking about puppying Scooby Doo, and the corrupting influence it had on the youth. I went home shattered that all of these things I loved were damnable offenses, and told my dad, who was also religious, and had started our going to church. He was really angry. He told me how by that guys logic anything that isn't directly christian programming is from the devil. I guess that was sort of the straw that broke the camels back for me, because at that point the things that  didn't make sense outweighed the ones that did and I stopped going. This was solidified after I met a few of the people who stayed and they treated me like a sub human. Very Christ-like, right? At that point I guess I just sort of decided that I wasn't sure what I was, but I wasn't christian. As I stated in a autobiography we had to do in school, "I'm between religions at present"

 

That being said I actually love talking and debating about the finer points of religion. There are books in the bible I find fascinating because of the vivid imagery, like Job, Ezekial, or Revelation. My favorite part of church had always been the preacher coming up to talk because of that exactly, she would wax philosophical about the interpretation of different parts of the bible and how they applied to our everyday lives. I felt like I was learning something after that. Being a Baptist church though, half the time was spent singing gospel music, which I found excruciatingly boring.  Its weird, I haven't thought about this in so long I'm having trouble finding the words to describe it. Anyways, I guess that's my two cents.

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