debate over zora to rito evoloution

100 posts in this topic

Posted

I agree that they couldn't have evolved that much in that period of time. I think that the process began a long time ago. Perhaps some Zoras broke off and decided mountain life was cooler a bajillion years ago and eventually changed into Ritos. (The reason I think they went to the mountains is that that's where Ritos live now.)

We haven't seen them in any game other than WW (have we?), but that doesn't mean they're not there.

However, shouldn't Laruto (I believe that was the ancient Zora sage's name...) choose a Zora to take up the mantle? Well, I can think of two possibilities: (Keep in mind that Medli is Laruto's descendant)

1) Laruto was one of the Zora's who originally went up in the mountains.

2) Laruto came even before that and some of her descendants went up in the mountains, others didn't.

The latter implies that there are no Zoras left, of course.

---

But, I could be wrong, but I believe that Laruto was the most recent sage before Medli, but in order for my theory to above to make sense, that means Laruto must come after Ruto, but that wouldn't provide enough time for the evolution process since OoT and WW only have a gap of about 200 years.

Yep. I just shot down my theory.

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Posted

Everyone in here is taking evolution to mean natural selection, which is not the same thing. Evolution is the end result, the changes that have occurred from one generation to the next. Natural selection is a mechanism that drives those changes, but it is not the same thing as evolution and it is not the only mechanism that drives evolution.

Now let's talk about why the Zoras would've stayed above the waves. Think about how large the Great Sea actually would be, for starters. I don't know the exact distance from side to side, so let's say that the surface of the Great Sea is a square of size x; using simple geometry, the distance across the sea diagonally is x multiplied by root 2.

greatsea.png

Now, let's say that we want to find the distance from any point on the surface of the sea to any point on the bottom of the sea. Here I have the distance from a corner of the surface to the centre of the bottom, and the equation for distance from surface to bottom in general. It's pretty much what you would expect.

greatsea.png

Now, a little practical math. The islands on the surface of the Great Sea are the tops of mountains. We'll start by assuming an ideal mountain with a simple flat top poking out of the water. On average, the ocean is about 3700 m deep, which is a fairly average height for a mountain as well. Now, a mountain poking out of the water like that would have a slope of at least 30 degrees, which gives us a distance of 7.4 km when we work it all out. That's a long way to swim.

mountain.png

When the flood occurred, the water would have been forceful for a period of time, at which point some Zoras may have come onto the mountain tops, while some may have stayed at the bottom. When the flood was over, some Zoras may have returned to the water, but many probably stayed on land. I don't know if you've ever swam 7.4 km, but I'd imagine you'd find it to be very long, very monotonous, and probably wouldn't find a lot to eat along the way.

In conclusion, the Zora had quite a good reason to stay above the water. There was little point to swimming all the way back down to Zora's Domain, only to wind up far away from the rest of civilization if they even made it at all.

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Posted (edited)

When the flood occurred, the water would have been forceful for a period of time, ...

In conclusion, the Zora had quite a good reason to stay above the water. There was little point to swimming all the way back down to Zora's Domain, only to wind up far away from the rest of civilization if they even made it at all.

We all know that the water is deep.

To have a change this drastic, the Zora would need to become Hylian. That was my point, that the goddesses must be responsible for the Zora to Hylian transformation (if these are the Zora), then ritual made these Hylians feathered. Either way, the divine intervention and evolution theories are unimaginative, and reek of poor story telling. That's why you need to stop thinking about timelines and continuity, because that isn't where the story is at.

Edit: cleanup the awkwardness a bit

Edited by Sheogorath (see edit history)

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Posted

The water is deep. Thanks for missing the point.

I agree, I think that the goddesses are responsible for changing the Zoras. That said, I think that the possiblility is also there for natural selection to take its course instead, and it's silly to say otherwise since nothing states how long the period between OoT and WW actually is. Regardless, I'm only showing that there is in fact a plausible reason for the Zora transformation in the first place.

We all know that the ritual gives them wings and beaks. The "they were Hylians all along" theory is unimaginative, and reeks of poor storytelling. That's why they wrote the game the way they did, because they're not idiots and they understand how their own game's world works.

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Posted (edited)

We have to look at how evolution works. Evolution is the biological changing of an organism due to environmental changes. A zora is aquatic and thus it's diet consists mainly of fish and as stated in Wind Waker "They (meaning the Great Sea) yields no fish to catch" so in order to survive the Zora had to evolve. Keep in mind these changes happen not over generations but quickly due to game time frame.

First they left the water permanently, then they evolved gliding wings (like archeopterics) which in turn evolved into full flight wings. Thus they could look for new habitation, which brought them to the Dragon Roost Island (formerly Death Mountain?) And the tamer ancestor of Volvagia, Valoo.

Edited by Savanti Romero (see edit history)

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Posted

As was already pointed out, they don't naturally have wings, the wings are due to Valoo. The fish point is valid though.

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Posted (edited)

I agree, I think that the goddesses are responsible for changing the Zoras. ...

So stop postulating the other. I'm sure Darwin would have much to say about goddesses, sentient rocks, incarnations and talking monkeys. Darwin has no meaning in the LoZ universe; his theories have been revised considerably in the real world. Also, natural selection has severe limits in LoZ.

Are you aware of what A deus ex machina is? Are you aware that it is the central pillar of the LoZ universe, as in the Triforce? Do you realize this is myth?

The "they were Hylians all along" theory is unimaginative, and reeks of poor storytelling

I know it is; I know it does, because the intermittents are empty of imagination and sufficient storytelling. Please, when you formulate your own myth centric theory, then call my theory boring. At least it is congruent with the fantasy world, and it goes further to explain what happened to the people of Kakariko, not just the Zora. Whenever you attempt to reconcile the "timeline" with the real story, then you get a disaster:

That's why you need to stop thinking about timelines and continuity, because that isn't where the story is at.
By the way, the "you" is used plurally, and serves as a reminder to me as well as you.

The story of WW is parallel to TP (as in a universe apart but at the same time). This is evident from various officious articles around the net.

Edit: Rearranged sentences and cut bad spelling; over all, shorter

Edited by Sheogorath (see edit history)

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Posted

the ghost is because gannon took the zora's soul.

They evolved into rito when hyrule sank because they could not get the thing they needed to live.

there is a huge air pocket in the ocean around hyrule. They could not escape so the evolved into winged creatures to fly out.

Note: the mountains of hyrule were at the edges of the air pocket. so if they climbed up the mountain to get out they would die trying

Edit:I made a chart to show this theory

evolution.jpg

lol @ Zora's Corpse & I totally Agree, Zoras Evolved into Ritos.

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Posted

answer is yes hope someday they finish explaining what they started

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Posted

Personally I believe that Zora's did evolve into Ritos, but not in the way you'd expect. While the Deku tree was describing the Koroks, he said that they chose to become what they are, not specifically "evolving" per se. For this reason I think the Koroks came to the Deku tree and hearing their pleas turned them into Koroks via magic. The same thing likely happened to the Zoras, who in OoT were fresh-water fish, therefore unable to sutain themselves in the sea. They came to Valoo who in turn used his magic to make them into birds, which would allow them to move freely without dying from the water. the question now is how did they wind up on Dragon roost, which is right on top of Death Mountain? Was their some sort of war?

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Posted

Puck, there are several problems with that.

Zora can be either saltwater or freshwater, and it doesn't matter which, because where they live is just that. They can live wherever, and that's what kind of Zora they are. If Zora had to be in a certain type of water, Zora Link would die every time he entered the Deku's water source.

The Koroks are the Deku Tree's children. In Ocarina of Time, despite their village being hidden, they took on childlike forms, probably to seem less threatening, because people would occasionally actually find the village. That's probably why Kokiri have longevity and are naturally children. Their true forms are the Koroks, who are just stout, short trees, and trees live a long time. Pretty much, though, after the Deku Tree's forest haven was created, there wasn't really a need to conceal their identities, since they not only lived in a gigantic barrier from the outside world, but they also lived on a secluded island. In their child forms, also, they didn't have any special abilities due to the Hylian anatomy they took the shape of, but in Korok form, they could travel freely through their propeller-like limbs.

Rito don't naturally have wings. They have to get them from Valoo. The question is how they evolved into the already bird-like anatomy they have, (Beaks, claws, down, etc.) which is probably the result of the Goddesses looking out for the Ruto. Gorons have already been proven to be able to breath underwater, so I don't think they had to worry too much. Still, Gorons post-WW were very fat, and fat allows for easier floating, so I suppose this aided them slightly, whereas the TP landbound Gorons were very muscular and much more rocky.

Since the Zora don't have an elevated mountain structure, they probably just took Dragon Roost since it was devoid of the dwindling Goron population.

Sahaqiel

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Posted

It happened with magic, like the Koroks may have been the Kokiri before the world was flooded and the Deku Tree changed them into Koroks in order to make forests. Magic, it fixes everything.

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Posted

This is an interesting concept I was unfamiliar with. Has anyone ever noticed how much people can read into what seems to be a single addition to a game in itself, and develop it until it answers a very important question? Things like this make me enjoy the Zelda series that much more. I should probably browse this forum more.

It makes me think there may very well be a fourth diety after all!

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Posted

pheonix, no.

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Posted

Man you could at least be so kind as to show me the thread where you debunked all that stuff.

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