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General Timeline Theories (SPOILER ALERT)

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Posted

Because if he never unsheathed the Master Sword he couldn't have beaten Ganon but Ganon never would have been a threat, thus by getting the Master Sword, he made the irreversible occurrence of Ganondorf getting the Triforce of Power.

You have to see it like this. When Link and Zelda were young, they thought getting to the sacred realm would stop Ganondorf. However, unlocking the Sacred Realm didn't stop him but got him the triforce of power. So Link kind of screwed up. That is why he has to set things straight in the future, because he caused Ganonodorf getting the triforce... I've always found that fascinating :)

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As far as the FS games go, the order is tMC-FS-FSA, but none really have to be directly sequential. For example, tMC is generally either before OoT or after WW on most timelines. If it's placed before OoT, then it won't connect directly to FS and it doesn't have to. With your line, which is similar to mine, tMC-OoT-MM-TP-FS is more likely than OoT-MM-TP-tMC-FS for numerous reasons, one of which includes the names of locations changing once rather than back and forth (Mt. Crenel to Death Mountain vs. Death Mountain to Mt. Crenel back to Death Mountain).

The biggest issue I see is your line's linearity. The devs have confirmed a split in the timeline after OoT, as follows:

__WW/PH

OoT

¯¯MM-TP

So just move WW and PH to a separate branch of OoT and it'll be very good.

Sorry, but I'm a none-splitist (to even use that term proves I'm a huge nerd-_-). I prefer to think that there is one big timeline rather than two seperate ones. I also think that perhaps Mount Crenel in Minish Cap is actually different from Death Mountain. In fact, I believe there are TWO Death Mountains; one that we see most often and is present in Ocarina of Time, which I call "Death Volcaino". The other is the Death Mountain of the original Zelda games (LoZ and Zelda II). Because of the way it appears in Zelda II, I call this one "Death Mountain Range". If Mt. Crenel is Death Mountain, the most likely candidate is Death Volcaino. But again, I think it's a seperate location. But it's all just speculation, and very poor speculation on my part.;)

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Sorry, but I'm a none-splitist (to even use that term proves I'm a huge nerd-_-). I prefer to think that there is one big timeline rather than two seperate ones.

Even if you don't want to take the developer's word on it, the split should be evident by Ganon's behavior in TP and WW. WW makes obvious references to OoT, therefore it must occur after OoT occurred. TP's Ganon makes no mention of OoT and does not recognize Link or the Master Sword. Therefore, TP's Ganon can not be OoT's Ganon after OoT occurred. He can, and must, be OoT's Ganon on a line where OoT did not occur. If TP's Ganon is not OoT's Ganon without OoT occurring, he must have a completely new, unseen origin (inb4ZWii), and still fit the characteristics TP shows (the same characteristics as OoT). I fail to see, then, how a linear timeline can reconcile the presence of so many Ganons. Why is TP's Ganon the only one who does not know the MS? Why do we have no origin story for him? (this is assuming that a linear timeline does not have OoT-TP-WW, as TP's Ganon would most certainly know of OoT events.)

I also think that perhaps Mount Crenel in Minish Cap is actually different from Death Mountain. In fact, I believe there are TWO Death Mountains; one that we see most often and is present in Ocarina of Time, which I call "Death Volcaino". The other is the Death Mountain of the original Zelda games (LoZ and Zelda II). Because of the way it appears in Zelda II, I call this one "Death Mountain Range". If Mt. Crenel is Death Mountain, the most likely candidate is Death Volcaino. But again, I think it's a seperate location. But it's all just speculation, and very poor speculation on my part.;)

I just don't trust Capcom's geography. If you compare tMC Hyrule to Holodrum, they have more similarities than any other two maps, except perhaps LOZ and LttP.

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Posted

I have little trouble reconciling the multiple Ganons. In the case of Twilight Princess Ganondorf, I persume, is the original Ocarina of Time Ganondorf created when Zelda sent Link back in time and changed history. Due to "Adult" Ganon still possessing the Triforce of Power, he was uneffected by the future being eradicated, as was the Seal that imprisioned him. This resulted in two Ganondorf's existing in the same universe; one in the still tainted Dark World, and the other in Hyrule. TP's Ganondorf failed to take over Hyrule, and was imprisioned in the Twilight Realm. Both eventually escaped- Ganondorf in Twilight Princess and Ganon in Wind Waker.

TP Ganondorf appears to have only shown up once, though the "Adult" Ganon seems to make a number of returns. Examples that might be him include:

A Link to the Past

Oracle of Ages/Seasons Linked Game

The Legend of Zelda

Wind Waker

Note that in all of these events, Ganon is killed, yet also his minions attempt to bring him back from the dead. It's possible that he was resurrected repeatedly- if anything Wind Waker Ganon's remark would indicate that he has fought Link a number of times, and wanted the cycle of death to end.

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To be honest I always considered any Zelda game that has heavy reference to either wielding the Master Sword or the full Triforce; or even having to go on a quest to collect pieces of a broken Triforce portion to be a TRUE Zelda game that we've all seen the basic Zelda formula for (start quest, find 3 relics or pass some trial, obtain Master Sword, continue on with specific trials to either power up the MS or recover the Triforce, face Ganondorf, kill him/seal him away, and move on).

I've basically labelled the games following the end of WW to be a separate story of post-Hyrule's destruction. PH was a dream-state of sorts with no mention of the Triforce or the Master Sword; however you are sent on a quest to gather 3 relics to reforge the Phantom Sword and each of the relics has the same color of the spiritual stones/pendants seen in other Zelda games that you needed to collect to obtain a more powerful sword. ST lacked this quest however; there was no tracking down three stones to get a new sword, it's pretty much just given to you in the moments leading up to the final battle. Hyrule in ST doesn't even feel like the regular Hyrule we've explored in other titles; it's more of a nod to a land that time forgot. To me, the end of WW->PH->ST is "what would Hyrule be like if the Master Sword and Triforce didn't exist anymore."

I know how I said games without the Master Sword and Triforce don't quite follow the normal formula for Zelda games, and the other ones I can think of off the top of my head that have no connections to the MS or the Triforce are Link's Awakening, The Minish Cap, Four Swords, Four Sword Adventures, Majora's Mask. You might see the Triforce emblem in certain areas, but other than that there's no mention of anything Triforce-related, no sign of the Master Sword, and no Ganondorf (except for FSA, where Ganon returns as an "ancient evil reborn".)

For the sake of my post, these are games that have featured the Master Sword and the Triforce:

o Legend of Zelda (NES) - Quest to recover Triforce of Wisdom, Ganon holds Triforce of Power, Master Sword not present (unless you count the Magical Sword, if it's considered the Master Sword in this time)

o Adventures of Link (NES) - Quest to recover Triforce of Courage, Master Sword not present (probably not needed since Ganon's already dead).

o Link to the Past (SNES) - Quest to keep Triforce away from Ganon, Master Sword obtained after finding three Pendants of Virtue.

o Ocarina of Time (N64) - Quest to keep Ganon away from the Triforce (epic fail on Link/Zelda's part cuz they practically give it to him); Master Sword obtained by collecting Spiritual Stones

o Oracle of Ages/Seasons (GBC) - Sent by the Triforce to Holodrum/Labrynna to save those lands; Master Sword is only given to you once certain parameters are met in a linked game.

o Wind Waker (GC) - Starts as quest to save sister, explodes into the recovery of the Master Sword after collecting 3 pearls of the Goddesses and recovering the pieces of the split Triforce of Courage.

o Twilight Princess (Wii) - Triforce of Courage bound to Link from the get-go; as are pieces bound to Zelda and Ganondorf respectively. Master Sword is obtained after freeing Light Spirits; as opposed to collecting 3 colored relics.

And games without Master Sword and Triforce collecting/finding/doing a quest for

o Link's Awakening (GB) - Island of Koholint; contains enemies/people seen in Hyrule, there's the odd place here and there where you can see the Triforce emblem; it's thought the L2 sword is the Master Sword, but I highly doubt it. Collecting Sea Shells to obtain the Sword of Evil's Bane? C'mon...

o Majora's Mask (N64) - Termina; Triforce emblem is seen on Link's shield and the Ikana region; not a single mention of the Master Sword.

o Phantom Hourglass (DS) - Dream-state of Oshus (Wind Fish [?]) of the Great Sea. Triforce emblem is seen in various puzzles; Master Sword not present but there is a sort of "find 3 relics to reforge a powerful blade" quest once the Spirits of Wisdom, Courage and Power are re-united.

o Spirit Tracks (DS) - Hyrule, or a "New Hyrule"; no Triforce except for in emblems (Quite possible Triforce no longer exists thanks to Daphnes wish to flood Hyrule forever. No Hyrule, no Triforce perhaps? No Master Sword (probably still buried in Ganondorf's head at the bottom of the sea).

o Minish Cap (GBA) - Hyrule, or possibly a young Hyrule before the influence of the Triforce and the creation of the Master Sword. Light Force is thought by many to be an early version of the Triforce, or some form of it's power. Master Sword not present; White Sword/Piccori Blade/Four Sword takes it place.

o Four Sword/Four Sword Adventures (GBA/GC) - Triforce seen only in emblems/art around Hyrule; Master Sword not present. Four Sword used again; interesting to note that the Knights of Hyrule you find/save give you the same 4 colored stones/orbs you use to re-power the Four Sword in Minish Cap...

Another thing I thought of as I was typing all this out and getting my info from other sites; what if we're all wrong and we're trying to place all these games in a split timeline setup, when we should be trying to link all the games containing saving/finding/collecting the Triforce and recovering the Master Sword together, and connecting all the ones that don't contain Triforce/Master Sword possession/hunting?

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Posted

I've thought of a variation of the linear theory. But before, I've played these games too little to have a "real" opinion and I don't have any evidence, so this is just a thought.

Why not have Minish Cap, Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker at the very end of the (linear) timeline? If Link was sent back in OoT, the other games would then happen before that.

I have no other games to put in this timeline, it's just a thought.

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It's impossible to argue "for" a linear timeline. It's too full of holes. Well, it's possible, but it's a lot easier to argue for a split timeline, due to the nature of the games.

Also, saying Minish Cap, Ocarina of Time, and Wind Waker are at the end of the timeline, linear or split, is stupid. Spirit Tracks is the "end" of the timeline, and we don't even know if that will be the last game. You can't say something is the "last" because the developers keep adding on. Yes, at one time, Wind Waker was the "last" Zelda game, but now we have Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, which both chronologically take place right after Wind Waker.

Do you have any evidence suggesting that Minish Cap takes place at the end of the timeline? Because the game suggests differently. Besides the numerous references to where Link got his hat, why there are rupees/items in the grass, and Vaati's origins, the game never speaks about another hero, whereas most of the games, besides Ocarina of Time, do. Vaati is in Four Swords Adventures as well.

One thing we do know is that Wind Waker takes place after Ocarina of Time. So does Majora's Mask. On a linear timeline, The order would go (With Minish Cap probably first, but could also be anywhere before Wind Waker): Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Not to mention Zelda I, II, Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Four Swords Adventures, or the Oracle games.

It is quite simply impossible for Minish Cap, Ocarina of Time, or Wind Waker to be "last" on any timeline, and impossible for Minish Cap or Ocarina of Time to be anywhere near last.

Please put more effort into explaining your "thoughts."

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This is my timeline theory. Keep in mind, this is by no means the "ultimate" timeline but I don't foresee too many holes, and it takes into account everything that developers have said.

1st game: Skyward Sword

Reason: At this point, this is mere speculation. But apparently, the Master Sword is going to be created in Skyward Sword. So, this would explain how the Master Sword got into the Temple of Time in the first place.

2nd game: Ocarina of Time

Miyamoto said that, at the time, it was the first Zelda game. Keep in mind he said this before Skyward Sword was ever announced. Here is where the timeline splits. When Zelda sends Link back in time, the Master Sword is placed back in the pedestal (Child Timeline) and the world Link left behind, the future, leaves Ganondorf sealed away (Adult Timeline).

Now, I will diverge on the two timelines, beginning with the Child Timeline.

Child 3rd Game: Majora's Mask.

This is an easy one. It's both been dubbed as a sequel to Ocarina of Time by the developers and by the game itself.

Child 4/5th Game(s): Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons

This is a difficult placement, but I ultimately decided on here, because the Master Sword and Ganondorf both appear in the games if you Link them. In the beginning of both games, Link travels to where the Triforce is held. The Triforce commissions Link to help the lands, Link saves them, and is returned to Hyrule.

Child 6th Game: Twilight Princess.

This is where we learn that there is both a Light world and a Dark world ("Twilight", if you prefer) and Link already has the Triforce. This is significant, as the only way he could get the Triforce of Courage would be to: 1) get it himself and 2) receive it from his bloodline. Since the game does not mention Link getting it himself, and since he seems genuinely surprised to find out that he's the descendent of a legendary hero, I'm going with the latter. At some point in time, Child OoT Link came back and had a kid. Whether this is his child or his child's child or his child's child's child is yet to be seen. I do think that the mysterious swordsman that teaches him the ancient sword techniques is his father, though. But that's speculation at this point.

Child 7th Game: A Link to the Past.

This game talks about a Light world and a Dark world, but refers a lot to the past. The dark ones were sealed away in the past (I'm thinking Twilight Princess, because Midna shatters the mirror) and, at the end of the game, Link makes a wish on the Triforce, and, according to the game, "The Master Sword sleeps again...Forever!" A lot of people push this away as a developer error, but I take it as canon. Also, Ganondorf was made into "Ganon" by his Triforce wish. He is referred to as Ganon from then on. Link destroys Ganon. The Triforce says that the dark world is no more. This explains why Zelda I and II do not mention it.

Link's Awakening takes place here. It was supposedly a dream, and it doesn't delve into the timeline much at all.

Child 8th Game: Minish Cap.

I put it here mainly because it has both the Four Sword (Picori Sword), which isn't the Master Sword, and Vaati, because Vaati is crucial to the next game on this list. If you'll remember, Vaati was sealed away in the Four Sword.

Child 9th Game: Four Swords Adventures.

This Link unfortunately unseals Vaati, who goes on to resurrect Ganon. Ganon uses the Dark Mirror to create Shadow Link. Link is able to seal Ganon away in the Four Sword.

Child 10th Game: The Legend of Zelda.

The first game in the series is number 10 on my child timeline. In this game, there is no Master Sword, and Ganon apparently breaks the seal that was holding him. The townspeople had to move do to all the monsters unleashed on hyrule. Link combats them and kills Ganon.

Child 11th Game: Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.

Link ventures off to where all the people moved. Ganon's minions kidnap Zelda and put her to sleep. They also need Link's blood to try and resurrect Ganon. Link ends up fighting his darkness (Dark Link who was introduced in Four Swords Adventures) at the end of the game and manages to wake Zelda. Ganon is not revived. Also, there is no Master Sword.

Alright, so that's every game on the Child Timeline, as far as I know.

Now, for the Adult Timeline:

Adult 3rd Game: Wind Waker.

In the introduction to Wind Waker, we learn that the Hero of Time vanquished Ganondorf and sealed him in the Sacred Realm. We then learn that Ganondorf escaped from the realm, and the people expected Link to save them again. However, Link was sent back in time, so he did not appear. The people prayed to the gods, and Hyrule was flooded with only a few hylians surviving. Flash forward a few generations and you have a new Link, a new Zelda (Tetra), and Ganondorf is revived. Link has to recover the Triforce of Courage again, since he is not part of the bloodline of the Hero of Time. This Ganondorf is a lot more pensive than past ones, and you'll notice that he seems almost sad. He obviously remembers fighting the Ocarina of Time Link, and compares the new one to him. At the end of the game, the King of Red Lions makes a wish on the Triforce that the old Hyrule be drowned and the kids find a new Hyrule on the sea above.

Adult 4th Game: Phantom Hourglass.

Often said to be a dream, but regardless, it takes place right after Wind Waker, for obvious reasons.

Adult 5th Game: Spirit Tracks.

This one I have not beaten, so I cannot delve into it as deeply, but it is, again, obviously after Phantom Hourglass. The developers have also confirmed this.

Here's a shortened version:

SS->OoT->MM->OoX->TP->LttP->LA->MC->FSA->LoZ->AoL

->WW->PH->ST

So there it is. My timeline. Feel free to punch holes into it, but I think you'll find it very well thought out and quite plausible.

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My spidy senses were tingling! Something..... has.... happened! Interest. Altogether very plausible, yes, very plausible. A few little nit-picks, so long as discussion can be made.

Child 4/5th Game(s): Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons: A problem emerges when one places the Oracles between OoT and TP. Twilight Princess seems to carry on the status quo from OoT- that the Triforce is broken into pieces and in the hands of its three traditional holders, Link, Zelda, and Ganon (and Link and Zelda's descendants/reincarnations). However, in Oracles the Triforce is whole and kept in Hyrule Castle. It isn't clear how it became separated before TP, but the game's backstory would imply that the Triforce was scattered not long after the events of OoT. So between OoT and TP doesn't fit very well..... However, events after A Link to the Past or Zelda II:AoL are perfect. The Triforce is whole and apparently in the hands of the Royal Family (conjecture, yes, but consistent) at the end of both games. Ganon is also dead and needs to be resurrected during the Oracle games- between OoT and TP Ganondorf is quite alive. Also note that Ganon in the Oracles is a big blue, super-powered boar without the Triforce of Power. Thereforce it can be assumed that this particular Ganon is the same as the one from Four Swords Adventures, who gains his beastly form from the Trident of Power. That however has a problem when it comes to FSA Ganon not dying at the end of the game........

Which brings us to: Child 9th Game: Four Swords Adventures: Ganondorf actually orchestrated Vaati's un-sealing from the Four Sword- Vaati didn't revive a dead Ganon, nor really does he have any reason to. This Ganon is stated to be a reincarnation (along similar lines of Zelda and Link being reborn over and over again) of a previous Ganondorf. Of note, the Ganon in A Link to the Past also has a trident like this one's Trident of Power, and doesn't seem to rely on the Triforce for his abilities (leaving the entire thing locked in a room, instead of 'within' himself). The remake of A Link to the Past for the GBA also features an extra dungeon in the Dark World where the Four Sword can be found- FSA Ganon's final prison. All these small clues point to Four Swords Adventures occuring before A Link to the Past and the Oracle games. So.....

Four Swords Adventures- Ganon alive, sealed later- Triforce not seen

A Link to the Past- Ganon sealed, killed later- Triforce in Dark World, with Link later

Oracles- Ganon dead, brought back from dead and killed later- Triforce in Hyrule Castle

(They all look exactly the same to boot)

And yes, that does bring up the problem of the Master Sword's appearance in the Oracle games if it is supposed to rest forever. But I have a strong feeling that its appearance in a Linked Game isn't really counted as 'canon', or may simply represent a different sword altogether. In Seasons, when Link first retrieves his L-2 sword, it is called the Noble Sword, not the Master Sword. Only after it has been 'sharpened' does it become 'The Master Sword'. True, he is in the Lost Woods, and yes, he pulls it out of a glowy pedistal with a Triforce mark on it, which all looks very Master Sword-like. But consider that in Ages, 400 years in the past, an identical sword is in the possession of an elderly Zora, who trades it to your for an ukulele. Not Master Swordy at all. The simplist explanation is that in either case we aren't dealing with the REAL Master Sword- just a powerful magic sword that gets the same name if you upgrade it (usually the base level Master Sword is called "The Master Sword", and you work your way up from there- here it is going in reverse). In the end, we could still be looking at an error on the creators' parts. Or even more likely, they really didn't care that one line at the end of one game said the Master Sword would rest forever. I'm still leaning towards "not the actual Master Sword", though.

One last nit-pick. The Dark World/Evil Realm and the Twilight Realm *probably* aren't the same place. The Dark World in A Link to the Past (and, one would assume-though it can't be absolutely proven, Four Swords Adventures) was said to be the land where the Triforce rested before Ganon brought it to the Light World/Regular Hyrule, and became corrupted and turned to darkness when he first touched it. The Twilight Realm on the other hand is said to be a place the Goddesses banished the Dark Interlopers, who tried- but failed- to steal the Triforce, an event that occured before Ganon successfully stole it. The Dark Interlopers' descendents went on to become the Twili. It would be silly to banish people who tried to steal the Triforce to very place where it rested- a happy, sun-shiny, not very twilighty place before Ganon came around. We know for certain that the Dark World was once the Sacred Realm, the Triforce's original home, so the connection with the Twilight Realm is ultimately rather weak.

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The only reason I'm confident in the "Master Sword sleeps forever" quote is because, in the GBA remake, they still didn't fix it. I find this significant, since it leads me to believe it wasn't actually broken to begin with. Plus, for those who say that they didn't change anything, they added the extra dungeon and also changed up some of the story in the booklet. So you can't tell me that they didn't realize it was in there. I know you weren't saying that, but there's just a lot of people who blow it off when it could be one of the most important quotes in the entire series, as far as timeline placement goes.

See, the Oracle games are a particularly difficult thing for me. They just seem so...misplaced. Anywhere I put them, I run into a hitch. I thought about leaving them off, but I'm determined to figure out some way of explaining their presence. It may be that Capcom and Nintendo didn't communicate effectively enough or something, but the games are amazing, so I loathe to think Nintendo didn't have a hand in it. I don't know. As for right now, I have no answer on the subject simply because of ignorance.

One thing is for certain. A Link to the Past, Minish Cap, and Four Swords Adventures are all connected somehow. And since Dark Link shows up in Zelda II, I can only assume it takes place after FSA, since there's no other mention of Dark Link. Although, Ocarina of Time's Dark Link is throwing me for a loop. On the one hand, I want to say it's only part of the water temple and not something to worry about, and on the other hand it makes me want to put Ocarina of Time after FSA, which would screw up everything. Well, not everything, but a hell of a lot.

I realize all that about the Dark/Twilight Realm, but I can think of nothing else to connect TP with ALTTP. Link doesn't have the Triforce of Courage in ALTTP, but he does in TP, so...either TP Link died and a new Link was born, or ALTTP is on the Adult Timeline.

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I see your point on that quote- if it was wrong, they would have fixed it.

There definitely seems to have been a lack of communication on the Oracles. What happened was the developers crammed in too many references to past games- look how many characters from OoT and Majora's Mask made an appearance in Ages/Seasons-and wound up with little conflicting details like the Master Sword. All we can do is try to decide which facts are important and reflect the games' placement in the overall storyline, and which facts are minor that we can do without.

The Four Swords Saga and A Link to the Past are indeed strongly tied together. Minish Cap and FSA constantly point back to ALttP, using similar items and dungeons, reviving old plot elements (the Dark World, the Seven Maidens, etc.). The Dark Links, though, we can explain as being unrelated. In OoT, the Water Temple needed an ideal guardian- duplicate of the intruder works. In FSA, Ganon needed some way of making Link pull the Four Sword from its pedestal- he happened to have the Mirror of Darkness on hand, which makes evil shadows of people. In AoL, Dark Link is the last challenge the hero must face to reach the Triforce of Courage- someone who knows all your moves is a worthy final challenge for the hero. They aren't necessarily all connected- Nintendo just likes to reuse a cool enemy.

Your right, it is difficult to find a link between TP and ALttP. Twilight Princess, as far as the story goes, seems to be a way of tying off loose ends that come out of Ocarina of Time...... Though it mostly just leaves us asking more questions. It seems that after Ganondorf is killed at the end of TP, the Triforce is restored (we can't be sure because they don't show this happening), which would explain why ALttP Link doesn't have it, though not why ALttP Ganon has it. There are still a lot of gaps in the Zelda story. Hopefully future games will shed greater light on the subject.

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The Link in OoA/S had Epona, so maybe that could mean something.

Also, you know how the Triforce is in a castle, like in ALttP? And it talks to him again? I think OoA/S have a connection to ALttP and OoT or TP.

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We see Link riding a horse- that's it. The horse never appears again, nor is it named. Sure it looks a whole lot like Epona, and most likely IS Epona, but no one ever gives the horse's name, nor does the horse play any further role in the story. It's one of those tiny little details people use to support/disprove theories, even though it is incredibly insignificant and doesn't really imply anything.

The Oracles start out with Ganon dead and the whole Triforce in Hyrule, which fits the ending of ALttP, so there's a connection there.

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LA could fit in between WW and PH bcause the boat Link was riding could be KoRL and could explain why we see no sign of KoRL in PH since he broke KoRL

And could explain how Link survive the crash (because Tetra's ship picked him up)

It is just my spectulation though

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