Poll: Abortion

[Ganny 285]

I'm not really going to reply to your first paragraph, seeing as it was majorly a clearing-up that couldn't really be debated with, but I found the second paragraph to be rather interesting.

I don't see why anti-abortionists aren't concerned about life support being pulled on people in comas and such. Going by the way you are arguing this, isn't that the same thing?

I'm not sure. In such situations, the patient is being kept alive unnaturally by machines and such, whereas the unborn baby's womb-situation is completely natural. So, one could argue that pulling the plug and having an abortion are opposites, since aborting isn't something that would regularly happen in nature, and life support is keeping someone alive by means other than those found in nature. But still, the human life principle hasn't been done away with, so one could argue that we should preserve and protect the coma victim's life regardless. Note that I haven't formed my own opinion on this subject yet, so I'm not arguing either point.

[Chameleon 0]

Well that's what I was getting at. I think the life part of all this is the most important thing (hence "pro-life"). Wether it is natural or unnatural is just getting very specific; sort of a technicality.

I don't have much of an opinion on either of these things... I think the plug should be pulled when the patient is in a vegitative state. I've had several family members end up like that and it's just terrible. Abortion has a lot of benefits, but it conflicts with general morals. I think that saving the mother's life (if it comes to it) is the most important thing, but I think that when an anti-abortionist says the same he/she needs to realize the hyprocracy behind that. That's what makes this so tough, though.

Edited 21 Oct 2008 by Chameleon (see edit history)

[なべ 184]

The biggest problem I've always had with this debate, no matter the side you're on, is that gets too big and too ridiculous.

Let's look at the order of operations here, in a simple, factual format.

1) An embryo is a group of cells that eventually becomes a baby.

2) A baby grows inside a woman.

3) A woman is a person.

4) A person has the right to choose what they do to their body.

Now, gently place all your other arguments aside and read that.

Read it again.

Read it until you understand.

I know it may be hard to fathom, but it's irrelevant whether you believe life begins at conception or not. It's an opinion, and rules are not made based on opinion.

Rules are made based on fact. Number 4 is a fact, and it is the only fact that has any bearing on the legality of abortion.

[Shadowknight 54]

A woman has control of her body. She has control over her life. She should not, however, have the right to choose whether or not her child has a chance to live. She chose to have sex, and that's why she is pregnant.

"Oh no, I got pregnant! I think I may have to go kill the baby so that I can go on with my life!" I know it's nowhere near that simple, bit essentially it is. Kill the baby so that you don't have to deal with the challenges and so that you can just go on with your life.

[DungeonMaster 0]

She chose to have unprotected sex, but an embryo is defined by Law, not alive, tell us and provide proof stating that destroying an embryo is murder, by that saying; We should not have the right to eat the egg yolk, even if that person is starving, is he commiting murder, by your arguement he is yet no one cares, I guess the guy who collects the eggs are serial killers

Edited 21 Oct 2008 by DungeonMaster (see edit history)

[なべ 184]

Whether or not the person chose to have sex, that doesn't forfeit their decision over other bodily matters.

Your position on whether embryos are living or not is irrelevant, as I've said. Of course killing a baby is wrong, but it's not a baby unless you see it as such. Your opinion on when that growing child is considered human is your opinion, and it only has an effect on whether or not you have an abortion. It does not mean anything to anyone else unless they agree with that opinion.

[=Zoe= 3]

And no ZuZu, our planet isn't overpopulated, since there's still plenty of space to go around.

I'll have to disagree with you, yeah, we've got still physical space, but we're running out of water, and a lot of people in the world doesn't have the posibility of three meals per day. We invaded the planet, and our needs is destroying it.

So, yeah, that's another point, but it all goes together. We could deal if we can control the population for some time, and non-planeed babies cause a lot of problems. The parents have to drop school (most of the times) so they lack education, they're young so they can't raise the child, and then? what happens? yes, the baby grows and have the chance t live, and I don't say that it's all the cases, but he/she won't have the same oportunities or life quality like, as much I hate to sy it, a married couple as parents or a joined family, that are prepared to have a baby.

Sex... unprotected, protected, one night stand, or in a serious relationship, it has the same chances of geting the girl pregnant. It doesn't mean that the couple is not responsable of their actions, as ZuZu said, even with protection there's no 100% guarantee. Now, sex is almost a need, if so many people just do it for the sake of pleasure, it doesn't mean that you have sex because you're ready to have a baby. I actually don't know anyone who had their first time after feeling ready to have a baby. It's just sex, it doesn't mean reproduction anymore.

Yeah, sex caused the overpopulation we're dealing with now, and it causes all the abortions, it just happens.

Talking in numbers, abortion is the answer to a lot of problems. Talking about what it means, the woman could feel guilty and like they killed someone, their own child. Getting to my point, I think abortion should be legal, each woman should have the right to decide what is the best for her and her life. I think that the guilt should be enough punishment for the accident, to have people saying that is wrong.

I know people who have aborted, yeah, they're hurt, and it changed their lives... they stil have sex, yeah, it is an instict, right? So... it should be legal.

Well, it is legal now in my city, and I think is okay, to let every person to decide.

[Shadowknight 54]

Tbe problem exists because people have turned sex into something that isn't special. It shouldn't be something that people use for pleasure alone, it's much more special than that. Also, waiting is the only foolproof way to make sure that you don't get pregnant before marriage.

That aside, everybody is speaking for the mother. The baby is the victim here, not the mother! It's not like the abortion is killing the mother. If your mother had gotten an abortion, you wouldn't be here right now. If she said, "I'm not ready for a baby yet. I don't care whether it's ready to have a life yet."

This subject is something that is very important to me. Life starts in the first states of development. It may be just a few cells, but those few cells will grow into a complex organism that has feelings and senses and will one day fall in love...

If you get rid of those few cells, you change a lot of things. The environment that the human would have grown up in would change. His would-be friends would end up different because they didn't have the child's influence in their lives. The place that he/she would work will never get to be affected by the decisions of the child. Every single place that the child would visit in its life would be changed by the removal of those few simple cells.

[なべ 184]

Tbe problem exists because people have turned sex into something that isn't special. It shouldn't be something that people use for pleasure alone, it's much more special than that.

This is your opinion.

That aside, everybody is speaking for the mother. The baby is the victim here, not the mother! It's not like the abortion is killing the mother. If your mother had gotten an abortion, you wouldn't be here right now. If she said, "I'm not ready for a baby yet. I don't care whether it's ready to have a life yet."

Not important. Our mother's opinion were not to have abortions, so we are here. Those are opinions, not anything more. No effect on the argument.

This subject is something that is very important to me. Life starts in the first states of development. It may be just a few cells, but those few cells will grow into a complex organism that has feelings and senses and will one day fall in love...

If you get rid of those few cells, you change a lot of things. The environment that the human would have grown up in would change. His would-be friends would end up different because they didn't have the child's influence in their lives. The place that he/she would work will never get to be affected by the decisions of the child. Every single place that the child would visit in its life would be changed by the removal of those few simple cells.

This is an opinion and an assumption. You assume that someone's life will be effected, made better or worse, by this person's life. While this is probably the case, it doesn't matter - the chance of this person benefiting people is the same as the chance that they will harm people, and so it's irrelevant.

[Shadowknight 54]

What I was saying is that this person does matter. If the mother got pregnant, it's her fault. If she didn't have sex she wouldn't be pregnant. This is a fact.

The person that is being aborted would have made a change in peoples lives. Whether it is good or bad, there would be influence on someone. This is a fact because how many people do you know of that go through life without ever seeing another person or being seen?

The argument that someone born to a teen mother has less of a chance in life is wrong. I seriously believe that if someone does everything in their power to get out of poverty, they will move up in society.

Whether or not society is too insensitive about sex is a different subject and a matter of oppinion, so I will try to refrain from using it in my arguments.

My main thing here is the baby, not the mother. Mothers should love their children more than anything else, so depriving their baby of the chance to do anything is a horrible offense. This may be my oppinion, but the fact remains that a baby that is killed before birth doesn't get any chance in this world.

[なべ 184]

What I was saying is that this person does matter. If the mother got pregnant, it's her fault. If she didn't have sex she wouldn't be pregnant. This is a fact.

This is a fact. It does not change the fact that the woman has a right to her body.

The person that is being aborted would have made a change in peoples lives. Whether it is good or bad, there would be influence on someone. This is a fact because how many people do you know of that go through life without ever seeing another person or being seen?

This is a fact. However, because that change has an 50/50 chance of being positive or negative, it's irrelevant. If that event has not occurred yet, why does it matter that it could?

The argument that someone born to a teen mother has less of a chance in life is wrong. I seriously believe that if someone does everything in their power to get out of poverty, they will move up in society.

The argument that someone born to a teen mother has less of a chance in life is irrelevant. As I said before, it is not just the anti-abortion people who make unnecessary arguments. It is however relevant that said teen mother should have a choice. It is irrelevant that she chose to have sex; it has no bearing on her right to her body.

My main thing here is the baby, not the mother. Mothers should love their children more than anything else, so depriving their baby of the chance to do anything is a horrible offense. This may be my oppinion, but the fact remains that a baby that is killed before birth doesn't get any chance in this world.

But since the baby does not exist, the chance they may have had does not matter. I know it sounds harsh, but the thing in question here is not the chance a child may have had. The consideration of that matter deals entirely in opinion, because that chance can never be evidenced unless the child is born. The only thing that requires consideration in this matter is whether or not a woman has a right to her body. The answer to that is yes, and thus abortion should not be made illegal.

[DungeonMaster 0]

How is an embryo 'alive' does it have concious thought? No. Because it's a set of cells with 2 different types of drones working together to develop the the fetus. Sex should only be used for reproduction? Then why are our urges to have sex for pleasure. I agree, if everyone dropped everything just to have sex that'd be a bit out of hand, but expecting everyone to hold up your personal ideals is a bit too much to ask.

The process of life, starts at conception but the life itself does not. So really you're saying that a 15 year old girl who got raped, got counselled by both sides and then she MADE HER OWN DECISION whether or not to keep the baby(lets say she didn't want to keep the baby), You're going to deny her the right to an unpainful abortion? Making abortion illegal won't do anything other than get rid of the unpainful abortion, people can still do abortions in their own homes.

[=Zoe= 3]

His would-be friends would end up different because they didn't have the child's influence in their lives. The place that he/she would work will never get to be affected by the decisions of the child. Every single place that the child would visit in its life would be changed by the removal of those few simple cells.

Exactly, you're talking about what would happen. The mothers life is already there, it already exists, is the present not a possibly future.

And, if a mother aborts, the victims are both the baby and the mother, why do you give the idea that is easy to abort? it is not and yeah, the one who will have to deal with the consequences of the abortion will be the mother, because the baby doesn't think yet, and I make an emphasis: yet.

[なべ 184]

Sex should only be used for reproduction? Then why are our urges to have sex for pleasure.

To be fair, we feel pleasure associated with sex to encourage us to fulfill our biological imperative to breed. But many creationists don't prescribe to the evolutionary theory, so in that case it does serve as a valid point.

[Gael 1]

Of course a woman has the right to choose what to do with her own body. But if a woman is pregnant, it's not only her body she has control over. It's the body of a growing human being.

And also, I believe life begins at the first detectable heartbeat.