Poll: Abortion

[なべ 184]

Of course a woman has the right to choose what to do with her own body. But if a woman is pregnant, it's not only her body she has control over. It's the body of a growing human being.

And yet, since that body is part of her, separable only through birth, abortion, or some unfortunate accident, it is still her.

When it's an embryo, it's a group of cells, which is part of her. When it's a child, it's still a part of her, linked by the umbilical cord and an intrinsic part of her as a being. It is, therefore, no one's business but her own. It's inarguable.

Regarding the second point, it's important to mention that abortion is only allowed before the third trimester anyway, so as a general rule, at that point the baby is undoubtedly a baby and it would be absurd to call it otherwise. However, at any point before that, any opinion you may have about when the baby is its own living being only factors into your own decisions on your own abortions. It has nothing to do with abortion as a whole.

[Chameleon 0]

Tbe problem exists because people have turned sex into something that isn't special. It shouldn't be something that people use for pleasure alone, it's much more special than that. Also, waiting is the only foolproof way to make sure that you don't get pregnant before marriage.

Pffft. I disagree. Sex can still be something extremely special without marriage. If you are a religious person (and you are) you won't see it that way because what your religion tells you to do influences your action; it's your opinion. Sex is sex, it's not linked to marriage

[Aatch 0]

Ok, reading through more of these posts, I'm seeing too many "Well the person could be great, they could be president/prime minister/pope".

There are two logical fallicies in this argument:

1. You are attempting to predict the future, you are relying on conjecture and making a feeble stab at peoples emotions to make them sway to your view.

2. You are assuming that the person may be a good person. In many states, the death penalty is still in effect, what if the child turns out to be a murderous brute? What if they become a sociopathic killer? There are many cases where someone like this has been sentenced to death. By your own argument, abortion is merely a pre-emptive strike.

Ok, now onto the teen parents argument. Many anti-abortionists (or pro-life) claim that its not a valid argument because there is nothing stopping them from breaking out of poverty and becoming something better. While this may be technically true, statistics say otherwise. Statistics show that people born into a low socio-economic bracket, have trouble breaking out of that bracket, or they may only raise up a small amount in their life. My parents are in a middle-ish bracket, we are well off, but not rolling in money. Now if my plans go right, I may end up in a higher bracket, a much higher bracket. But my parents were ready to have a child, they were married, they both had stable jobs. But had they been in the situation of being 17 year-olds, they wouldn't have had that oppurtunity to get decent, stable jobs, and without those resources behind them, it would be nigh-impossible for their child to go to a tertiary institute.

Teen parents are just that, teenagers, they aren't adults and have not finished developing, they have not had the chance to do what they can.

Now, there will always be teenage parents, but in many cases, abortion is not out of the question, most of the time its the most logical and appropriate solution.

[Aethix 129]

The biggest problem I've always had with this debate, no matter the side you're on, is that gets too big and too ridiculous.

Let's look at the order of operations here, in a simple, factual format.

1) An embryo is a group of cells that eventually becomes a baby.

2) A baby grows inside a woman.

3) A woman is a person.

4) A person has the right to choose what they do to their body.

Now, gently place all your other arguments aside and read that.

Read it again.

Read it until you understand.

I know it may be hard to fathom, but it's irrelevant whether you believe life begins at conception or not. It's an opinion, and rules are not made based on opinion.

Rules are made based on fact. Number 4 is a fact, and it is the only fact that has any bearing on the legality of abortion.

1) Wrong

2, 3, and 4 are irrelevant due to the fact that the baby is a separate entity that is simply attatched to the mother by the umbilical cord. To suggest otherwise suggests that half the time a woman becomes pregnate, she grows a penis. That is stupid.

She chose to have unprotected sex, but an embryo is defined by Law, not alive, tell us and provide proof stating that destroying an embryo is murder, by that saying; We should not have the right to eat the egg yolk, even if that person is starving, is he commiting murder, by your arguement he is yet no one cares, I guess the guy who collects the eggs are serial killers

Your ignorance astounds me--the chicken eggs we eat aren't fertilized, meaning no conception has ocurred.

How is an embryo 'alive' does it have concious thought? No. Because it's a set of cells with 2 different types of drones working together to develop the the fetus. Sex should only be used for reproduction? Then why are our urges to have sex for pleasure. I agree, if everyone dropped everything just to have sex that'd be a bit out of hand, but expecting everyone to hold up your personal ideals is a bit too much to ask.

The process of life, starts at conception but the life itself does not. So really you're saying that a 15 year old girl who got raped, got counselled by both sides and then she MADE HER OWN DECISION whether or not to keep the baby(lets say she didn't want to keep the baby), You're going to deny her the right to an unpainful abortion? Making abortion illegal won't do anything other than get rid of the unpainful abortion, people can still do abortions in their own homes.

Three words: The Silent Scream.

Why make murder illegal? People can still do it!

Abortion is murder, it's as simple as that.

Now, there will always be teenage parents, but in many cases, abortion is not out of the question, most of the time its the most logical and appropriate solution.

Have you ever heard of adoption?

Edited 19 Nov 2008 by Aethix (see edit history)

[Shadowknight 54]

Thank you, Aethix.

[DungeonMaster 0]

Where's your proof that the collection of cells has conscious thought? I believe the fetus only becomes conscious at 3 months, most you can wait is 1 1/2

Also, it's already been established that the zygote is the combination of the two seminal fluids. That collection of cells isn't alive, the DA defines murder as killing a human being, a zygote isn't a human being is it? No it isn't, therefore it isn't murder.

And why make murder illegal? So people don't run rampant killing everyone they disagree with. Making murder illegal and have serious reprecussions is one of the building blocks which stops the tower of order from falling. Your ignorance astounds me.

Edited 19 Nov 2008 by DungeonMaster (see edit history)

[Shadowknight 54]

So, by your definition, someone who is in a vegitative state is not alive. Plants aren't alive either, because they don't think. Right?

The funny thing about this argument is that both sides think that they are fighting for human rights. One argument from the pro-choice side is that for some people, having a child will deprive them of one of their unalianable rights: the persuit of happiness. However, isn't childbirth supposed to be a womderous, happy event? That's why it's frequently referred to as a miracle.

In reality, every single cell is alive. It's made up of many different organelles that controll the functions. It has an excretory system and vacuoles that absorb and store water. If you ever see one under a microscope, it's moving.

When cells cluster they continue living, but they work together. They join together, too. They are very much alive.

[Chameleon 0]

A point that keeps coming up is if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant. Will you anti-abortionists not make an exception there? It would be horrible carrying that person's child; having to go through all the hardships of pregnancy to bare an illegitimate and unwanted child just to give it up for adoption. Even if she chose to keep it, it's absolutely horrible.

[Aethix 129]

Where's your proof that the collection of cells has conscious thought? I believe the fetus only becomes conscious at 3 months, most you can wait is 1 1/2

Also, it's already been established that the zygote is the combination of the two seminal fluids. That collection of cells isn't alive, the DA defines murder as killing a human being, a zygote isn't a human being is it? No it isn't, therefore it isn't murder.

The truth is, no one can "prove" when life begins. So when you're not sure, any decent human being would err on the side of caution and not kill what could potentially be a human being. However, I am firmly convinced that a zygote is in fact a human being.

And why make murder illegal? So people don't run rampant killing everyone they disagree with. Making murder illegal and have serious reprecussions is one of the building blocks which stops the tower of order from falling. Your ignorance astounds me.

And your ignorance astounds me. I was using sarcasm to counter your argument that abortion should be legal since everyone would do it anyway. You have proved my point that whether or not people will obey a law is not a deciding factor in writing the law. Thank you for that.

A point that keeps coming up is if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant. Will you anti-abortionists not make an exception there? It would be horrible carrying that person's child; having to go through all the hardships of pregnancy to bare an illegitimate and unwanted child just to give it up for adoption. Even if she chose to keep it, it's absolutely horrible.

You have good intentions, but why punish the baby?

[Shadowknight 54]

I don't speak for all pro-life people, but rather than kill the baby because of its parent, why not put it up for adoption?

I know, the adoption homes are full already. But at least the children in them are still alive. They eat, they go to school, and they have opportunities. All things that victims of abortion never get to do.

[Chameleon 0]

You have good intentions, but why punish the baby?

I don't think it's necessarily punishing it. Not you, nor the baby, can miss something you've never experienced. Babies aren't really cognizant; so developing babies would be even less so. For instance, nobody remembers being born or circumcized. Nobody remembers the first food they ate or the first words they said. At that point in your life you are living on instinct and nature.

Abortion is a tough thing. Nobody tosses it around lightly. It's not a contraceptive. I don't think abortion is right, but there are certain (extreme) cases where exceptions should be made. A woman should not be forced to bear a rapist's child. The thing is, you can't just limit something to its extremities. If some abortion is legal, it's going to trickle down and people in less extreme situations will have abortions wether it's legal or not. I think after a certain (and early) point during pregnancy abortion should not be an option unless the mother's life is threatened. You chose to have sex in some way that put you at risk; safe sex is very safe if you take the correct precautions. You made a mistake and you should have to live with it, but sometimes it's not your fault.

Edited 21 Nov 2008 by Chameleon (see edit history)

[Shadowknight 54]

How do we know what the baby feels? You can't argue any points about the thoughts or feelings of a fetus because you don't remember being in the womb.

I don't care whether the child can think or not. It's still depriving a human of one of the three core freedoms. Life, Liberty, and the persuit of happiness.

Actually, it's depriving the baby of all three. They don't get to live, they don't get to be free (they get no say in the matter), and they don't ever get the opportunity to persue happiness. So, in America at least, it shouldn't be so big of a problem.

Another thing. Do you know how they got abortions in ancient Rome? They killed the child. Left them to die in the wilderness.

It's really a terrible thing, but for some reason people can't see it in the same way I do. So many lives, so many deaths. Think of the children! This is a plea, not an argument! Save yourselves from this corrupt generation!

If you ever get or get someone else pregnant, please think of the child. Put it up for adoption if you must, but don't kill it.

[Skippy 82]

Allright, here's my view on the topic.

Abortion should be a safe, available legal practice.

That being said, I do not approve of abortion. If I get a woman pregnant, it is my responsibility to care for that child, should she choose to keep it. I would not tell her to get an abortion, nor would I stop her, it is her choice.

Now, legally, abortion is not murder, by definition.

The definition of murder is depriving another Living Citizen, i.e. Human, of their life. Legally, life does not begin until a baby is born. There is legal precidence to this fac, but I don't remember what case it is, and I don't feel like loking it up in my paper. Now, this has been extended to only making second and third trimester abortions illeagal, due to being unethical and painful to the baby.

Now, to those who say that a fetus can feel an abortion at any point. No. You are wrong. I'm sorry. Eventually a baby will be able to feel an abortion, but not until it has this cool thing called a central nervous system, or CNS. The CNS does not develop in any sense until the second trimester, give or take a few days. The baby/fetus can feel no pain, or anything else, for that matter, until then. Even past then, EEG's have shown that a fetus' brain is not capable of processing pain or pleasure for quite some time, even after the CNS has developed.

So, as for the silent scream, baby holding the doc's hand picture. Congrats, you just saw a reflex that is rarely seen, cause let's face it, how often are you in a woman's womb in that context? not often.

Now also, There is a small problem, if abortions were made illeagal, you would not only be removing babies from the world, you would be killing mothers from botched home abortions and overdoses on drug coctails, congrats, you just voted for organized crime to pick up another illeagal activity, abortions. like thay did back in the late 1800's early 1900's.

And as for abortion. Do you ever wonder why you see so many children from China being adopted, and not so many Americans? well, if you've ever looked into it, it's because it costs less than half the price to adopt a foreign child as opposed to an american child. So you just add to a population of childrn in overcrowded, underfunded orpghanages with a sucess rate of less than 50%. It's just not worth it to take all the classes, go on the wait lists, go through more classes, go through acceptance counciling, go through initial interviews, acceptance interviews, and yearly counciling sessions for x amount of years when you can adopt a foriegn baby n about three months for a quarter of the price. Most people who adopt, just want a kid to love, it doesn't have to be an American. It's just not worth it.

So while I will agree, abortion isn't fun, it's not morally good, but it is not right to make it Illeagal because you have an issue with it due to religion, a woman has rights to her body, including her womb. yes she sould have been more responsible, but guess what guys, poo happens. Deal with it.

[Shadowknight 54]

You talk about the legal side of things. Honestly, I don't care for our legal system. I understand why you would, though.

I guess that I see things differently than a lot of people. To me, abortion represents a problem that quite a few people have. It doesn't really matter to people that they, the people that the child relies on, are deciding whether or not to allow the child to come into this world. To me, it seems like people are once again trying to "play God." We aren't really qualified to deliver a death penalty to someone that hasn't had the chance to do anything wrong.

Let me rephrase that. We aren't qualified to take away the opportunity to live from a baby. It's just not our place.

Another thing. I know that having an abortion is one of the most difficult decisions to make, and it should be. You are deciding whether or not you will let your child to live. I don't think that it should really be a decision, though. It should be obvious. Would you willingly put a human in a place where they couldn't eat, drink, or breathe? Probably not. It's cruel.

Abortion is like playing Russian Roulette with our future.

Edited 6 Dec 2008 by shadowknight (see edit history)

[Max 10]

I think it should be legal. If a mother doesn't want the baby, she doesn't have to have it. And to reply to your "Rape is a trauma" statement, ganny, pregnancy is a trauma as well, and a baby is not therapy by any means. It's not like, hey I have a baby. I want to put it up for adoption. BAM!! And all of the sudden it is. It is a process that takes time, and the whole time the mother is wonder if it is the right thing to do this or not. It takes huge tolls on one's mind.