You are not entitled to the money I earn.

[Cirt 612]

Cirt, I am actually very interested in politics. And it disappoints me when people see youth as stupidity. I may not be able to vote, but I still have the right to have opinions and personal belifs about the political system and ways to make it better and more efficent.

*efficient, and I was merely agreeing in with Chase in the fact that you've have this attitude about politics that's rather attacking and close-minded, maybe you should lighten up a bit. Youth does not equal stupidity, but it does correlate with lack of experience.

[Kimmy 0]

I personally think that a government safety net like ours is a good idea. Maybe one needing /reform/ but certainly not one needing cutting back. I personally right now am getting 12k from the Connecticut state government per year to go to school. Had I been living in the state, I would have gotten a full boat. My mother is a teacher and my father retired due to medical issues. Would I be able to go to school without the money? Nope.

And then my dad. My father is collecting his pension, yes. That plus a teacher's salary, though, is not enough to put someone through college without great difficulty. So he applied for social security disability, and got it. Because of the money he is getting from the government, I am able to go to school and he can live a happy comfortable life and have enough money for the medicine that is keeping him alive. It costs us hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month for his medicine. And that is after insurance coverage.

I think that some things like social security need reform, but if government handouts were cut back, I doubt that my father would be alive and I doubt that I would be in school. It used to be that you almost never got social security disability unless you had something physically visibly wrong with you. My dad's lung and immune problems are on the inside, and without his oxygen tank (which he only got recently) he wouldn't have been able to get it had he retired maybe 10 years ago. We are changing our policies on who gets money and it is keeping good honest people who spent their lives working hard from dying. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Skippy 82]

I personally think that a government safety net like ours is a good idea. Maybe one needing /reform/ but certainly not one needing cutting back. I personally right now am getting 12k from the Connecticut state government per year to go to school. Had I been living in the state, I would have gotten a full boat. My mother is a teacher and my father retired due to medical issues. Would I be able to go to school without the money? Nope.

And then my dad. My father is collecting his pension, yes. That plus a teacher's salary, though, is not enough to put someone through college without great difficulty. So he applied for social security disability, and got it. Because of the money he is getting from the government, I am able to go to school and he can live a happy comfortable life and have enough money for the medicine that is keeping him alive. It costs us hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month for his medicine. And that is after insurance coverage.

I think that some things like social security need reform, but if government handouts were cut back, I doubt that my father would be alive and I doubt that I would be in school. It used to be that you almost never got social security disability unless you had something physically visibly wrong with you. My dad's lung and immune problems are on the inside, and without his oxygen tank (which he only got recently) he wouldn't have been able to get it had he retired maybe 10 years ago. We are changing our policies on who gets money and it is keeping good honest people who spent their lives working hard from dying. There is nothing wrong with that.

Your situation is a totally legitimate case for government help.

It's not this that needs to be cut back. It's the life long, non disability welfare recipients that are causing a problem.

It should be pointed out, however, that your college money is being provided for you by the state, not the fed, that is an entirely different set of circumstances, it is a state's right to provide that, not the job of the federal government.

If I may ask, who is your father getting pension from? Unless it is military or some sort of federal service, it is also being provided on a state or local level, his disability may also be coming from there.

I know my aunt is getting disability for her Lupus on both federal and state levels.

It's the excess people that are on it for convenience, and those who do not hold citizenship, that need to be cut.

[Chase 390]

First off, there is a huge amount of difference between a child needing his parents and an adult who chooses not to work because they make more on welfare (some say this does not happen, I worked with a girl who not only quit her job to get welfare, but had a second child to increase the check). Those menial jobs, believe it or not, are a vital part of our economy and society, I wouldn't knock them too much.

As for college, I've paid for a bachelor's degree by working those menial jobs, no parental support with tuition the past three years. I will continue to pay for my tuition with whatever jobs (you read that right, plural) I can work.

As for student loans, they aren't other peoples money unless you get them subsidized, you are liable for veery cent you are loaned in them.

There are those less fortunate, but there needs to be a change. people will need hep getting through a hard time between jobs. There are those who will need help getting healthcare. But we need to stop feeding a system that produces lifelong recipients. That is not acceptable, and needs to be addressed. And I think you would be amazed at the amount of janitors, electricians, plumbers and carpenters that have six figure a year jobs. Just because they didn't go to college certainly does not mean they are well paid. Just remember that next time your trash gets picked up, the dirty guy grabbing your can, likely makes more than you.

I don't know how you drew from my post that I was hating on menial jobs, as I clearly state the opposite, but okay. My basic point is that every cent you use to go to college is borrowed money. Yeah, they expect you to pay it all back, but there's a lot of leeway and deferments that can happen. It's not your own money. There is no money you can "earn" without other people. And what you should take from this fact is that everyone is important to the economy, and we need to provide assistance for those less fortunate, so they came either come back to work or spend more money and help the economy.

This belies a total misunderstanding of a free trade system. Bill Gates certainly earned his money. If he didn't, than every business owner who has made a living of their ideas never earned their money. If your money didn't require someone to purchase goods or a service form you, then you did not earn your money. You seem to have the idea that the only people who "earn" their money have to physically work hard or go to college for some menial job. This is most certainly not true.

There are plenty of people form poor backgrounds that get into college without scholarship. Those student loans are exactly what they say, they are loans, not a handout. You have to pay those back after you graduate, the "student" label only means that it doesn't need to be paid back till after you graduate.

I challenge anyone to live for a time on solely their own dime before they say that it can't be done to others, or themselves for that matter.

You're completely missing what I'm trying to say. The fact that I can't survive on my own is proving my point that we need each other. Maybe I'm not being clear, but my main idea is that we should help those less fortunate so that they can live a bit more comfortably if we have the money. GMP is saying that he doesn't think that anyone is entitled to the money in his pocket. I say it's a sin not to give someone else some of his money. Bill Gates DID get lucky, or blessed if you prefer. He had the skills, time, etc to make it work. Everyone in a higher position is blessed to be there. I'm not saying they didn't have to work or earn their place, I'm saying it could have been anyone. They were just in the right place, right time. And I commend Bill Gates, as he is giving all his money to charity after he dies, and also gives pretty generously to charities as it is.

I'm just trying to say we should help those in need of money if we have it to give away. And I have no problem paying taxes if that is what's happening. I'm not saying anything more or less.

[Ammonsa 308]

You know what I don't understand about America? We have free healthcare and all the jazz here, but no one whines about it. Honestly, what the puppy is wrong with it? I'm a capitalist, but I sure as puppy think it's the right thing to contribute to a better society overall. If you can give everyone a leg up with all of that care shit, then there will be less people who don't work. Sure, you'll say that there will be people who just won't work after recieving the money. That's your fault for not making it relatively easy to track them down. It works fine here. Better than fine. We've had this stuff for years, and we are gradually catching up to your economy. The thing about giving everyone help is that you'll have a more active workforce and more people buying things. This will stimulate the economy. AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Honestly. I'm sick of all the people who seem to think America will like turn into hell now that these programs are in place. Australia is a relatively nice place, isn't it? We have a stable and growing economy, we have barely anyone unemployed and even less are homeless.

Also, the country as a whole IS entitled to what you earn. You live in a country, not in some igloo in antarctica. For the nation to sustain itself, it needs your taxes. It's a fair trade for protection and the freedom to do mostly what you want. And yes, your taxes will rise. You country is getting bigger. You want to save some money? Get rid of some of your military equipment.

[なべ 184]

Pretend I made the above post, except I said Canada instead of Australia and I ridiculed you a little more.

[Ammonsa 308]

I should have ridiculed them more, shouldn't I. Damn, missed opportunity. Oh well. But yeah, that post also works for our cousins up in Canadaland.

[Marquis 9]

The main problem with America is that people have mixed definitions of "free."

Some people think it means getting money without working. Ergo, Welfare.

Some people think it means you should be able to take what you want. Ergo, Crime.

and SOME people think it means THEY'RE free and others AREN'T.

[Skippy 82]

I don't know how you drew from my post that I was hating on menial jobs, as I clearly state the opposite, but okay. My basic point is that every cent you use to go to college is borrowed money. Yeah, they expect you to pay it all back, but there's a lot of leeway and deferments that can happen. It's not your own money. There is no money you can "earn" without other people. And what you should take from this fact is that everyone is important to the economy, and we need to provide assistance for those less fortunate, so they came either come back to work or spend more money and help the economy.

Yes it is BORROWED. Someone, somewhere is making money off of lending you money to go to college. And yes, everyone is important to the economy, but it is better for the economy to be supported by people working for money, putting goods and services back into rather than just cash, you can't have a government spend their way out of a recession, it didn't work in the 30's, it won't work now. Hell, we needed a world war to spark our economy back then. You need NO assistance to go back to work, you need to get out on the streets, and apply for jobs and take whatever you can get.

You're completely missing what I'm trying to say. The fact that I can't survive on my own is proving my point that we need each other. Maybe I'm not being clear, but my main idea is that we should help those less fortunate so that they can live a bit more comfortably if we have the money. GMP is saying that he doesn't think that anyone is entitled to the money in his pocket. I say it's a sin not to give someone else some of his money. Bill Gates DID get lucky, or blessed if you prefer. He had the skills, time, etc to make it work. Everyone in a higher position is blessed to be there. I'm not saying they didn't have to work or earn their place, I'm saying it could have been anyone. They were just in the right place, right time. And I commend Bill Gates, as he is giving all his money to charity after he dies, and also gives pretty generously to charities as it is.

I'm just trying to say we should help those in need of money if we have it to give away. And I have no problem paying taxes if that is what's happening. I'm not saying anything more or less.

I am willing to bet if you got kicked out of your house today, and had no help, and you really wanted to, you could do it. If you have a little work ethic, and are willing to put the time in, you will be fine. Maybe you have to cut back and not have your iphone and expensive car, a small apartment, so on, but you will make it if you are willing to.

And I happen to agree that others are not entitled to the money that I worked to earn. I have no problem with a portion of my taxes going to the person who was just laid off, or injured, or has permanent disability. I have a problem with it going to the person who hasn't had a job on a year, hasn't applied for a job in a year, refuses to go to school, and has had their third kid for the extra money on their check.

Bill gates didn't really get lucky, he got smart. He saw a need, and he filled it. He was an astute inventor and business man, luck was a small part of it. He had the skills and time, etc, because he was willing to put it in. Let's be honest, anyone can do the same thing if they can come up with a way to fulfill a need and are willing to sacrifice their time and money to fulfill it. Ever wonder why he gives so much? He gives enough to lower his taxes. It's a business move, he picks causes he likes, and makes everything tax deductible.

I have no problem with my taxes going to legitimate need. I have problems with my taxes going to people abusing the system. It is in need of reform.

Ammonsa,

To understand what is wrong with Federal healthcare for all, you would have to have a rather intricate knowledge with the proper set up of the US government, the constitution, state's rights, interstate economic policy, and infrastructure. It is incredibly complex, and if you would like my honest take on it, you can PM me as it is far too long to go into here right now.

The country as a whole does have a right to what I earn, but only to do what is constitutionally granted to them. The states also take their portion for their programs. Again, it's a complex system you need to be fairly familiar with to fully understand.

As for the military, I agree, bring our boys home, from everywhere, let other countries fend for themselves, we don't need to be there. We can't afford to be the world's police.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

3.)Bill Gates was a brilliant innovator. Luck had almost nothing to do with his success.

I don't have time to reply to the rest right now, but I'd like to point out that Bill Gates got monumentally lucky.

The person who invented silicon chips sold the rights to them to Bill Gates and his partner at the time, since it was only being used in calculators.

Bill Gates would be nothing without silicon chips, and you certainly can't reinvent silicon chips today.

Financial success almost always boils down to luck, even subtly, like with people lucky enough to be born in a place that tries to be an equal opportunity nation.

There is a difference between opportunity in a poor ghetto and an upper middle class neighborhood, though, and sometimes that's even up to luck. Quality of schools and their teachers, etc.?

Why do you even care, GMP, if you think an anarchy where there are no roads or schools are better than what we have now?

Also, what the dicks, why are you so focused on militarization? Why do we need to spend as much money on fighter jets than we did on well... like nothing else.

We're already modernized in both military and in nation. Are you a blind patriot? I'm leaning towards yeah.

You should always remember that patriotism is placing real estate over logic.

Seriously, why dedicate so many resources on better ways to shoot and/or blow up people? You're clearly not a people person, though, so I don't know why your opinion even matters in this discussion.

Sahaqiel

[Skippy 82]

I don't have time to reply to the rest right now, but I'd like to point out that Bill Gates got monumentally lucky.

The person who invented silicon chips sold the rights to them to Bill Gates and his partner at the time, since it was only being used in calculators.

Bill Gates would be nothing without silicon chips, and you certainly can't reinvent silicon chips today.

Financial success almost always boils down to luck, even subtly, like with people lucky enough to be born in a place that tries to be an equal opportunity nation.

There is a difference between opportunity in a poor ghetto and an upper middle class neighborhood, though, and sometimes that's even up to luck. Quality of schools and their teachers, etc.?

Yes, luck has something to do with it, it always will in a free market society. However, silicon chips wouldn't have made any difference if he hadn't figured out how to use them to their full potential. You say luck, I say being the first to realize the true potential and full use of the materials available to him. Even without silicon chips, he still would have made DOS on disk, and sold it to IBM. The chips revolutionized the home computer, but he still had the corporate market pinned. Probably wouldn't be as rich as he is today, but certainly still wealthy.

There can be a certain amount of luck, however, luck can be circumvented by hard work. Anyone who is willing to put in the time can make something of themselves. Even in the worst schools, there are good teachers, if the student is willing to look for them, and the teachers willing to help, that can make all the difference. People work their way out of the ghetto and the worst schools every day. Does having a better school and more good teachers help? Yes. But there is more to it than that, the individual has control over how they cope with what they are given, and is fully capable of overcoming any adversity if they are willing to do the work. It's just that, especially in urban areas, these kids are told they have no chance, they faculty has mostly given up, and the parents aren;t there to support them. We have an urban culture where a 50% dropout rate has become the norm, that is a social change that can't be legislated, that has to come from the people.

[Grandmaster Phoenix 26]

I personally think that a government safety net like ours is a good idea. Maybe one needing /reform/ but certainly not one needing cutting back. I personally right now am getting 12k from the Connecticut state government per year to go to school. Had I been living in the state, I would have gotten a full boat. My mother is a teacher and my father retired due to medical issues. Would I be able to go to school without the money? Nope.

And then my dad. My father is collecting his pension, yes. That plus a teacher's salary, though, is not enough to put someone through college without great difficulty. So he applied for social security disability, and got it. Because of the money he is getting from the government, I am able to go to school and he can live a happy comfortable life and have enough money for the medicine that is keeping him alive. It costs us hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month for his medicine. And that is after insurance coverage.

I think that some things like social security need reform, but if government handouts were cut back, I doubt that my father would be alive and I doubt that I would be in school. It used to be that you almost never got social security disability unless you had something physically visibly wrong with you. My dad's lung and immune problems are on the inside, and without his oxygen tank (which he only got recently) he wouldn't have been able to get it had he retired maybe 10 years ago. We are changing our policies on who gets money and it is keeping good honest people who spent their lives working hard from dying. There is nothing wrong with that.

Safety nets need to be in place minimally. The net should not be so high that one strangles himself in the rope.

I view student loans to be more responsible.

Key word: Disability. And we need to keep those who worked hard alive with the entitlements. But you didn't mention what to do about those who abuse the system...

---

I don't know how you drew from my post that I was hating on menial jobs, as I clearly state the opposite, but okay. My basic point is that every cent you use to go to college is borrowed money. Yeah, they expect you to pay it all back, but there's a lot of leeway and deferments that can happen. It's not your own money. There is no money you can "earn" without other people. And what you should take from this fact is that everyone is important to the economy, and we need to provide assistance for those less fortunate, so they came either come back to work or spend more money and help the economy.

You're completely missing what I'm trying to say. The fact that I can't survive on my own is proving my point that we need each other. Maybe I'm not being clear, but my main idea is that we should help those less fortunate so that they can live a bit more comfortably if we have the money. GMP is saying that he doesn't think that anyone is entitled to the money in his pocket. I say it's a sin not to give someone else some of his money. Bill Gates DID get lucky, or blessed if you prefer. He had the skills, time, etc to make it work. Everyone in a higher position is blessed to be there. I'm not saying they didn't have to work or earn their place, I'm saying it could have been anyone. They were just in the right place, right time. And I commend Bill Gates, as he is giving all his money to charity after he dies, and also gives pretty generously to charities as it is.

I'm just trying to say we should help those in need of money if we have it to give away. And I have no problem paying taxes if that is what's happening. I'm not saying anything more or less.

The obvious solution is to fill in the loopholes and whatever else there is so that these lending companies can get the money they provided as their service, plus the fees they are entitled to for preforming said service.

By less fortunate you mean the ones who are in legitimate need of help, right? America's capitalist system ensures equal oppertunity for every person. Simply being poor and LAZY does not make you less fortunate.

Giving money to charities, ect should be your personal decision, you shouldn't be forced to.

Lets take a look at the social security system and how it "works" in essence.

People pay into social security all their lives until they retire/claim disability/ect. However, the return is larger than what they put in. This is where the problem lies. As young people insert money into the system, the recipients can claim more than what they put in. And as long as people are paying into it, the recipients are profiting. You know what they call this in investment terms? A Ponzi scheme. Once it runs out of money, those who put money into the system (In this description, the young people) will have no money from it.

---

You know what I don't understand about America? We have free healthcare and all the jazz here, but no one whines about it. Honestly, what the puppy is wrong with it? I'm a capitalist, but I sure as puppy think it's the right thing to contribute to a better society overall. If you can give everyone a leg up with all of that care shit, then there will be less people who don't work. Sure, you'll say that there will be people who just won't work after recieving the money. That's your fault for not making it relatively easy to track them down. It works fine here. Better than fine. We've had this stuff for years, and we are gradually catching up to your economy. The thing about giving everyone help is that you'll have a more active workforce and more people buying things. This will stimulate the economy. AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Honestly. I'm sick of all the people who seem to think America will like turn into hell now that these programs are in place. Australia is a relatively nice place, isn't it? We have a stable and growing economy, we have barely anyone unemployed and even less are homeless.

Also, the country as a whole IS entitled to what you earn. You live in a country, not in some igloo in antarctica. For the nation to sustain itself, it needs your taxes. It's a fair trade for protection and the freedom to do mostly what you want. And yes, your taxes will rise. You country is getting bigger. You want to save some money? Get rid of some of your military equipment.

Access to a waiting list is not access to healthcare. NICE, the British system, values your life at about $3500 per month. Also, what is tolerated by one generation will be embraced by the next.

It is right to contribute to a better society overall. But it should be your choice to contribute.

Aus GDP is < 10% of the US GDP. I can't argue that its falling, because it isnt.

Who will pay for it?

Also, heres some bits of statistics I posted a while ago:

(Scanners per million people)

Canada:7 MRI; 12 CT

United States:~27 MRI; 34 CT

(Out of pocket healthcare costs)

Canada:~15%

United States:~14%

The rest of the country is not entitled to my money, you filthy communist bastard.

---

I don't have time to reply to the rest right now, but I'd like to point out that Bill Gates got monumentally lucky.

The person who invented silicon chips sold the rights to them to Bill Gates and his partner at the time, since it was only being used in calculators.

Bill Gates would be nothing without silicon chips, and you certainly can't reinvent silicon chips today.

Financial success almost always boils down to luck, even subtly, like with people lucky enough to be born in a place that tries to be an equal opportunity nation.

There is a difference between opportunity in a poor ghetto and an upper middle class neighborhood, though, and sometimes that's even up to luck. Quality of schools and their teachers, etc.?

Why do you even care, GMP, if you think an anarchy where there are no roads or schools are better than what we have now?

Also, what the dicks, why are you so focused on militarization? Why do we need to spend as much money on fighter jets than we did on well... like nothing else.

We're already modernized in both military and in nation. Are you a blind patriot? I'm leaning towards yeah.

You should always remember that patriotism is placing real estate over logic.

Seriously, why dedicate so many resources on better ways to shoot and/or blow up people? You're clearly not a people person, though, so I don't know why your opinion even matters in this discussion.

Sahaqiel

Would they have soldd the chips to him if they didn't think he knew what he was doing?

Don't get me started on education here. Start a new thread for it.

Actually, when you think about it, the only economic success that involves luck is the stock market.

*Minarchist

This makes it seem like you are opposed to innovation.

North Korea is a prime example.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Would they have soldd the chips to him if they didn't think he knew what he was doing?

Don't get me started on education here. Start a new thread for it.

Actually, when you think about it, the only economic success that involves luck is the stock market.

*Minarchist

This makes it seem like you are opposed to innovation.

North Korea is a prime example.

1/ The point wasn't that they sold the chips to him, it's that he had the lucky opportunity to be able to buy the chips. Yes, he could have gotten into discs, but it wouldn't have made him that wealthy. There just happened to be an inventor who engineered the silicon chip at the time, and he happened to be around to take that opportunity.

2/ You imply that you don't want schools or roads. As in, have an uneducated nation. And the interstate roads were paved for the military, so why would you think we don't need those if you're so gung ho about our national security?

3/ No, luck happens all the time to everyone. And Skippy, hard work does make you more lucky, but you seem to completely ignore the fact that people are what they are raised as. People don't just ignore their basest feelings that they grew up with on a whim every few seconds. It takes other people to make them appreciate what they have, or certain situations that they're lucky enough to experience that makes them have a change of heart after being raised to think you're poor and will be poor forever. Some kids are raised believing that welfare will take care of them forever, so they don't have to work or go to school. That's bad luck, to have a parent like that, and the child is even more unlucky for having an easily manipulable child brain that stews in such a stupid notion. Like with our argument earlier where I asserted it's not ever truly one person's fault. You asserted that it's the person's conscious decision to shoot a gun, and that they could have just stopped. You seem to think that all people are born with a universal sense of what is right and a universal base set of emotions. People aren't like that. People aren't even born with depth perception.

5/ You're the one who looks opposed to innovation. Except in the military, apparently. Why would someone like me, who considers himself an engineer at heart, be opposed to innovation? I love the stuff. I could bathe in it. Why can't we innovate energy sources? Space travel? Something more useful than weapons designed to manipulate physics to make people suffer?

6/ Did you just compare me to North Korea in the middle of something totally unrelated?

[Rika Code 29]

---

Lets take a look at the social security system and how it "works" in essence.

People pay into social security all their lives until they retire/claim disability/ect. However, the return is larger than what they put in. This is where the problem lies. As young people insert money into the system, the recipients can claim more than what they put in. And as long as people are paying into it, the recipients are profiting. You know what they call this in investment terms? A Ponzi scheme. Once it runs out of money, those who put money into the system (In this description, the young people) will have no money from it.

---

Dude, you only pay half of it, your place of work pays the other half.

It is like that so than you can still have money to survive from your paycheck while you have a job, and people still hire you. While at the same time saving enough money to survive the rest of your life when you don't have a job, and no one wants to hire you (due to age or disabilities).

Would you rather have your grandma living 100% on your paycheck and living with you until she dies?

So if you only want to have your money in your SS than tell your boss to stop paying half of it and you will pay all of it instead.

[Skippy 82]

Dude, you only pay half of it, your place of work pays the other half.

It is like that so than you can still have money to survive from your paycheck while you have a job, and people still hire you. While at the same time saving enough money to survive the rest of your life when you don't have a job, and no one wants to hire you (due to age or disabilities).

Would you rather have your grandma living 100% on your paycheck and living with you until she dies?

So if you only want to have your money in your SS than tell your boss to stop paying half of it and you will pay all of it instead.

You do realize that without serious reform SS will go bankrupt very quick, regardless of who is paying into it, right?

It's not some fund that saves up what you personally put into it, corrupt politicians have been double dipping into it since LBJ days. We can't even afford the rush of baby boomers about to hit it.

Saha. I'll get back to what you said when I get home tonight.