Ivo-goji
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Posts posted by Ivo-goji
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It's like an older version of the American Dream, plus a God Complex. The guy was a one-man show. He even ran for President. Did Mormonism even add onto concepts of morals? I think it just messed around with the whole God system in general, correct me, if I'm wrong.
Now how did I miss this?:\
Saying how out-landish Joseph Smith was doesn't make the LDS religion any more fake than the other Abrahamic faiths for believing that Moses could lead the Israelites out of Egypt and accross the Red Sea, or that Jesus could raise the dead and walk on water, or that Mohammed split the moon in two and ascended into heaven. Smith never claimed to be the son of a virgin or to split satelites in half. Running for President isn't very impressive, not getting in office is even less impressive. And what is wrong with the American Dream? I thought that was a good thing. Telling people to worship the same being they have always been worshipping and claiming all your power and glory is thanks to that being isn't a sign of a God Complex.
I feel less confident in your understanding of this religion by the moment. Yes, it does add to concepts of morals, or at least Christain concepts of morals.
"We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."
The Second Article of Faith. Mainstream Christianity holds that we are at birth already marked as a sinner by having the Original Sin of Adam with in us. For this reason, infants and children must be baptized at soon as possible, or will be damned to Hell (the Bossom of Abraham not withstanding). Mormonism does away with this idea. We are responsible for our own sins and no one elses. Adam's transgression is Adam's transgression, for him to repent of and not us. Children cannot be baptized into the Church until the reach the Age of Accountability- eight years old.
We teach that families can be sealed together by Temple Sealing Ordinances, and remain together in the eternities. The Church puts intense focus on the family. That seems significant to me.
We perform baptisms for the dead, so that those who have passed without recieving salvation my obtain it. We also do not believe those who do not convert to Mormonism are damned for eternity, but rather will be ministered to in the after-life. Only those who do not want salvation at all are damned to Hell forever- because that is what Hell is, to be damed up, to have no more progression. To cease to grow or gain new knowledge for all eternity.
Everybody has been way off topic for far too long. Please try to get back to the main topic.
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You do have a point about Moses and the Ten Commandments, but I'm assuming (according to the Jewish/Christian mythos) that some people actually SAW him hold up the tablets and put them in the Arc of the Covenant. That doesn't make them the legit word of God, but it still one ups the the tablets that Smith was probably too lazy to even make outta paper mache.
The Book of Mormon contains in the preface the Testimony of the Three Witnesses and the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses, all of them declaring that they had handled or seen the plates it was written on. Some of them claim to have acted as scribes for Joseph's translation of the plates. Some thousands of people may have seen Moses perform miracles, but it is still disputed as to whether any of those thousands ever existed. In the case of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, we must only decide if we think they were lying or not.
I can half believe the Jesus story. Part of me wants to, until Mormons screwed with it. Hell, I'm not worshiping someone who puppyed his aunt, and his mother (in addition to a whore). The whole "drink my blood" thing I can take, but incest is just so creepy. Oh yea, and the racism and other stuff.
What the hell are you talking about?
You seem to be ignorant of most things that have to do with Mormonism. How do you complain so badly when you know so little?
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."Black people sure are curious creatures. Why would God give them such an unsightly trait! I know, they did something wrong in their godhood lives that made them like that!"
Then there's the whole men are Gods in the afterlife thing.
"Man, it sure does suck being a mortal. It must be cool being God. What if I COULD be God??"
If we believe men can become gods in the afterlife, then what is it that causes you to think we also believe black people are being punished for something they haven't done yet? Oh, wait, we don't! America was once an extremely racist place, Saha. Even then, while black men were indeed denied the priesthood, the teaching you (rather inaccurately) describe was never once considered doctrine. Most Mormons would never have heard such a thing in their life. Racism in nothing new to Mormonism. Practices regarding the withholding of the priesthood from none-whites were dropped years ago.
We believe people can become Gods after they die, sure. But it isn't something we preach around to everybody we see to try and convince that becoming a Mormon means becoming a God. I have brought it up here because it is relavent to the topic "Where does God come from?". Speaking of which, has anything that has been said in the last 20 posts had anything to do with that topic?
."Women are cool. Too bad you can only have one! Oh wait! Now you can!"
?
Polygyny (having MORE than one wife is what you are talking about, right?) has not been supported by the Church for a hundred years. They were not the only ones to practice it at the time either, Mormons were merely the most widely-spread group to allow plural marriage.
."Jesus is cool. So is America! Let's COMBINE them (despite no proof stating Jesus ever taught Christianity to Native Americans in either historical nor other religious texts)!"
Proof of anything was never of overwhelming importance to most religions. The folks in Jerusalem didn't know the Americas existed. The few Native Americans that the Book of Mormon describes as being visited by Jesus were almost totally destroyed by war a few hundred years later. Unless you don't believe in the Book of Mormon, but then what would make people think Jesus ever came to the Americas? Just like if you don't believe in the Bible or the numerous other things written in the very long wake of Christianity's arising, then their is nothing to make you suppose that Jesus ever came back from the dead or performed miracles.
."Well, no one will believe me if I don't get some legit words from some legit people. I know! I'll tell everyone Moroni, John the Baptist, Moses, Elijah, and the apostles Peter, James and John all visited me! Yeah, the more the better!"
If the Bible states that Prophets are called out by angels, that the priesthood can only be passed on by someone who already has it, and that past prophets shall one day return to fulfill prophecies, then things like should indeed happen eventually. Unless, of course, you don't believe in the Bible, or believe your own religion explains why those things don't seem to happen anymore.
."Hey guys, I found these tablets that no one has ever seen before because I am a prophet, and all the things I am telling you about God are true and are being channeled through my writing of the translations of these texts no one else can read!"
So when Moses claims to have spoken with God, commanded to lead an entire racial community into the desert, bring down plagues that create vast destruction and death that effects everybody but the people he is going to lead, and is also credited with writing Holy Books that contain the word of God, a religion that fully believes that is somehow less far-fetched then one that claims less spectacular feats of a man we can actually confirm as once existing?
.I understand that the media tends to ridicule things like this, but from what I understood and researched, these are major beliefs in your system. And honestly, they seem pretty squishy at best, to me.
So where did you do this research exactly? Two of those things aren't major beliefs of my system at all, and the others aren't that strange from a religious stand point, even if they are unique to Mormonism. Before you decide to berate a religion for being so particularly unusual to you, at least try to get your facts straight.
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No seriously am I weird for being really horny right now
Not really.
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Yay, Gym Leader fan service.
A Pokemon battle is not the answer. The Wild Chiliman just wants to make friends.
*pulls out Poke'dex and Gym Badges*
Nice teeth collection! Here, want see my Pokemon and Gym Badges?
Chiliman:
Ivo-goji showed Wild Chiliman his Poke'dex and Gym Badges (duna da dun da dee da dun da!)
Wild Chiliman is pleased! Wild Chiliman used frisky Gym Leader Fanservice to distract opponenet's Pokemon! Trainer Ivo-goji doesn't have any Pokemon out!
Ivo-goji thanked Wild Chiliman.
Wild Chiliman is pleased! Wild Chiliman became very trusting!
Ivo-goji: Hah! Sucker!
Ivo-goji through a Pokeball!
....
Wild Chiliman was successfully caught! Give a nickname to the Chiliman?
Ivo-goji: Hmmmmmm..... Thunderpants!
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[quote name='「Arcane
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Oh, and I found another reason:
5) Pain exists because God is a parent. He lets us make mistakes, and doesn't force us to do anything. You know, the whole "free will" thing.
That would seem to be the answer right there.
Also, Min, you are probably right. But still, this is interesting and enlightening. Must we stop?
Yea, Ivo, I was just kidding. Two religions I'd never accept as my faith would be Wicca and Mormonism. Scientology is also pretty crazy, but it still out ranks Wicca and Mormonism in my list of legit faiths.
So was I, pretty much. Also, why is Mormonism so illegit (or Wicca, for that matter? Not that I have much experience with that system.)
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The concept of a God itself breaks the laws of physics. Like the conservation of mass-energy.
You just seriously contradict yourself here, I don't even.
If I were to worship anything I legitimately believed to be God, it would just be the universe itself.
That's one crafty universe, spontaneously creating everything like that.
The concept of the universe itself has a lot of things in common with your god concept, and with my concept of a god that is uncaring.
Go figure.
Sahaqiel
I get the feeling you ignore every single thing I've typed. The concept of God doesn't brake the Laws of Physics.
]Your] concept of God brakes the laws of physics, because according to you, that is what a God must do to be a God. God himself, in all of His communications with humanity, as never defined a God as working in this manner. This is something the world has come by after some thousand years of pondering on the subject. The Norse and the Greeks would not have agreed with the same concept of Godhood as you propose.
The universe isn't God either. According to what I have been taught, God is a being that exists in one place at one time, the universe's architect, from some where outside it.
"As Man is, God once was."
I kinda wanna be Mormon now, so I can die and become a god. I'd do everything that God does, only you know, it wouldn't be sick, twisted, and disgusting.
How rude. You wouldn't let me finish.
"As Man is, God once was. As God is, Man may one day become."
Also, you can't become a God unless you agree with your Father's methods. What are the chances someone will continue to listen to a person they believe is sick, twisted, and disgusting? Mortality is only the exam of lesson 1. Lesson 2 will have another exam, and odds are you'll fail if you don't understand what most of lesson 1 was about.
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So far, I have found a few reasons to justify pain:
1) It leads to greater happiness. That is, it makes the good things stand out more.
2) It's something to contrast heaven with.
3) It's so we don't become sedentary lumps.
4) It's to make sure nothing of that type happens again. For instance, the Holocaust happened. Now we try as hard as we can to stop anything like that from happening again.
There are probably more reasons, but I don't claim to know the mind of God. So as to wether he exists or not...that's up to you. Anyways, we'll all find out eventually.
One final note: the Bible was not made to be interpreted literally. Most of the stories are parables. Are there actual historical facts in there? Of course. But not necessarily many.
...Say, can anyone find a clear direction in that? If you do, please tell me.
That is more or less what I've been speeking of. Though my point hasn't been to declare why we are here, as that is only what I believe, but rather that my religion is not contradictory.
Pain never struck me as being particularly inconsistant with God being a loving being. There is no physical anguish in Heaven or Hell (the "eternal torments" so often sited as cruel and unfair aren't very spectacular), we should be greatful for the experience while it lasts. In eternity, we are likely to never feel it again.
The basic explanation, as far as I've been told, is that before our God came to be there was another God before him. Then another. And another. And so on into infinity.
"One eternal round."
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Also, I don't spell Sahaqiel with a U, Ivo.
Sahaqiel
It is complusive when I'm typing. Imagine the confusion when it winds up like that in the alphabet.
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@Sahaqiel:
Odd, I don't remember reading that in the rules. I thought it just bugged people really bad. Oh well, I can live with warn status.
The Bible doesn't say seven Earth days. It says seven days according to the passing of day into night. Earth was not the first thing ever created. There were other bodies to keep time by.
Again, I'm wondering what you have read. I'll re-phrase my previous statement. God won't do anything. He won't control our thoughts and actions, because that would destroy our agency. God would't make us perfect from the beginning, because we were never created. We were born. God is our Father. But there are things he can't do aswell.
The universe has rules, Sahaquiel. God is still bound by them. God is allmighty in that he can do anything that is possible. If something isn't possible, it can't be done. Your assuming our entire religious stand-point hangs on God being beyond all laws and limits. It doesn't. A person can still worship something that doesn't brake the Laws of Physics. God has never claimed to defy the Laws of Physics to anybody.
"As Man is, God once was."
God used to be like us. We are His children. A bear's cubs are not born as full grown bears. If God could decide how we would come into existance, then there is no better way than this. If not, then their is still no better way than this, for none is possible. Either way, there was no alternative to how the creation, the fall, or the Atonement can play out.
Your last statement seems slightly random.
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@Sahaquiel:
I am aware that the majority of mass murders aren't suffering from a mental problem that was been with them since birth. I was speeking of those that did. We are commanded to look out for one another and help each other to prevent people from having brake downs. It doesn't always work, because we can't control everything. God can control everything but us. There isn't much that can be done.
I have already explained the Garden of Eden. Several times. Either you are ignoring what has been written, or you can't tell when a question has been answered.
God can't do anything. He can't control our thoughts and actions, because that would destroy our agency. God can't make us perfect from the beginning, because we were never created. We were born. God is our Father.
God is God, God is God. Your the only one I've heard repeat this so many times. I have not once said "God can do anything because He is God", or "It doesn't matter because He is God." All my responses have been as clear as I can make them. God put the Tree in the Garden so Adam would fall, because humanity NEEDED to fall. We aren't perfect because children can't be born whole, they have to grow up.
I don't know every little thing about Christianity, no. But I do know just about everything about Mormonism. I've been taught enough to defend my views. I've read enough to tell you your instistance that my religion is contradictory is wrong. I've felt enough to know when somthing I've been taught or I've read is true. The Bible has been tainted, this we know. That is why the Lord gave us more than one Tastament of His reality. People can be tainted, this we know. That is why the Prophet tells us to pray if we do not believe him.
Say what ever you like about how the Holy Ghost is only in my mind. I have felt it strongly enough. In the end, you are still sitting in another place, on another computer, reading what I type, not here, not in my head, and not able to tell what I feel.
I don't need to prove that God exists. I believe it, and if you don't, that is not my concern.
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Abundantly false. Are you aware, that some people are born incapable of compassion? These people are known as born psychopaths, and there is no hope of rehabilitation. I suppose it is part of God's great plan?
Yes. They serve a purpose in steering people in a certain direction. This world is a place of pain, suffering, heartache, and death. But it is only temporary. That spirit was placed in a body with a mind that would not work as others did for a reason. Those who have mental disabilities were ment to experience only the pains of flesh and mortality. In the after life they will have insight that none others could comprehend, and it will ultimately be the better for them. For those who were killed by madmen, it was simply their time to die. Everyone will pass eventually. The people who cannot control themselves and murder without conscience are here to show exactly how horrible it is, to show us why it is wrong.
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You just offered nothing.
"His few select" lol. The only thing you're saying is that the super religious folks are going to see God before them. Like if I went up to them and said "I am God as a human" they would believe me. What about all the people that doubted Jesus? Why did they see him? Why wasn't Jesus an invisible ghost? Jesus could have been just a pretty cool guy with a peaceful attitude. He could have been anyone, and his achievements could have been overexaggerated.
Also, no one signed up for this lol.
Can you honestly say that, before you were alive, you were given a "GAME START" screen? No. No one signed up for this. Incidentally, things like sex or murder might not be hard to you, but you do not represent six billion very different people. We have things called hormones, and mental disorders, and emotions, and all that stuff. Yes. For people as a whole, it can be is hard not to do these things, just like how a lion finds it hard not to kill things so it can eat every once in awhile.
Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.
One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.
Sahaqiel
"His few select" are people who will serve a particular purpose in life that will impact the how the history of the human race plays out. If the actions of the Prophets, Jews, and others God has called to serve Him are not significant, then the whole of the spread of Christianity that shaped the lives of millions of people and hundreds of nations never happened.
Seeing Jesus never proved anything. He looked like a normal enough person in all respects. Besides, he did most of his preaching to Jews. They were already believers of God, they just needed to believe in him, their redeemer. The Bible does exaggerate details of his life. But you clearly aren't getting the message the writers were trying to convey.
Yes, I can, we were, get over it. We are here because we chose to. Every. Single. Last. One. Of. Us. That is what I believe.
God does not punish people who are mentally or physically incapable of following His commandments. And, for the record, a vast majority of the human race can control themselves. God is not a machine. When people require speacial treatment, He give it to them.
You act like you know every little aspect of every Christain religion. Frankly, you don't.
Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.
One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.
Sahaqiel
I have already done this. You feel God is a dick because you simply disagree with him. Your opinion isn't a truth, it is how you feel about something. It doesn't need to be refuted, because it is no-one's problem but your own. You disagree with some one, and have turned to insulting them or deciding that they are doing their job the wrong way.
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If God knows everything, why did he put people in the Garden if he knew they were going to disobey him?
Conclusion: God is being a dick, and your beliefs make God out to be a dick.
Alternative conclusion: God doesn't know everything, and your statement is a lie.
I mean sure, if I were a father and simply HAD to discipline my children, I'd do it. But I wouldn't stick them in a room with a jar of cookies and grant them the ability to die if they so much as lick their lips at it.
AlsoFingers, I agree with you pretty wholeheartedly. The concept of a God is pretty much a safety blanket.
If you think about it, God is a really REALLY convenient excuse. I mean, a REALLY convenient excuse. Almost like when you ask someone why they did something and they say, "Just because." That isn't an answer. It's just wasted air. You did it, so you did it BECAUSE of something, so just stating the obvious isn't going to get us anywhere.
There doesn't need to be a "before" in God's universe, because God is God. God is just the smart bomb in this situation. If you're assuming God is a legitimate and true answer, then you can't be wrong. It's an unfair discussion.
Anyways Lionheart, ever hear of "happy mistakes"? I doubt you've truly seen the underbelly of human nature yet if you're really that optimistic about it, but I would say "accident" describes people perfectly. If we weren't accidents, maybe some work would be put into making us a bit more perfect and a bit less poorly made in general?
Also, holy texts. Pff. Like really, I don't think I would argue against how holy texts are kind of lame, there. :/ Anyone can alter them at any time. Saying the human filter didn't mess up any kind of ancient holy texts is just fabrication. Anyone heard of the Gospel of Mary? The one where women are cool and not subordinate that religious administrators detested for its apparent anti misogyny?
Yeah. Probably not.
And yeah, if God were perfect, God wouldn't discipline good natured people for anything.
Another point for being a jerkface of a deity.
Also, this argument has too much Christianity/branches or alternates of Christianity in it.
I guess I am calling you guys out for having too much of a bias towards your own religion.
Popular voice is not always correct. Just louder.
@Freckle:
Also, the Big Bang states that at one point, everything was a SINGULARITY. All mass, energy, and antimatter were compressed into an extremely small space. Black Holes do the same thing. It's not quite that unbelieveable, though I'd like to live long enough to see a theory that says what there was before existence.
But yeah. Which religions actually have pregod stories?
Sahaqiel
Just for that, I am quoting the entire post. There is no reason to be so inconsiderate.
Most pagan relgions have pre-god stories. The Norse most particularly. That you don't know this is shocking.
Did you read a single thing I've posted in this thread? God put the Tree of Knowledge there ON PURPOSE. He wanted us to fall. That was apart of the plan from the very beginning. By falling, we were able to learn what suffering was like. We cannot understand joy without pain. In Heaven there is no suffering, no pain, no death. We had to know all of these things to grasp true happyness. So he made an Earth for us to learn pain, to be tested.
God rarely punishes us. He teaches us. He kills us to bring us back home, not because he wants us to feel the pain death. Life isn't a horrible nightmare of agony and suffering. There are things to make us happy all over the place. Life is short. Suffering is shorter. When we leave this world, we come back to the eternities with a clearer understanding and a greater glory than we would have born perfect and in endless innocence.
God must watch our suffering and struggle every second of every hour of every day. He has given us his Son, his Son, his one perfect creation so that we might live with Him again in a paradise that lasts forever, with no other reason save the love He has for us.
Don't mock the Holy Scriptures. The Spirit says they are true. They have shaped the world YOU live in. You may not have been born, may not live in the country that you do, were it not for the Holy Bible. Respect it. Respect the religions to which you and most of humanity can thank for their identity.
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1- God seems to reveal himself to a few select people. He's God, can't he just show up on TV or in the Sky or something and say "Here I am!"?
2- Why would God want to test us? Are we some kind of sick game to him? If I loved someone, I wouldn't make them jump through hoops for me.
1- Didn't you read what I posted about Satan's rebellion? The last time everybody on the planet was certain that there was a God, one-third of all intelligent beings in existance decided they didn't want to follow him anymore. The few select are just that- His few select. They were the ones who needed to believe in Him the most during mortality. Just revealing himself to us doesn't test our faith. He reveals himself to those who are already so strong in faith as to have no doubt of His existance. Those handful can't convince the world of everything, but they can at least bring in small groups. It isn't necessary for everyone to believe in God anyway. That fact will become quite evident when they have died.
2- Hay, you signed up for it. And we aren't jumping hoops. Just how difficult is it to not have sex with someone you aren't married to? Is stealing when you don't need to so very hard to avoid? Is murder an enjoyable activity that is just too fun to not carry out? These commandments aren't very hard. He even offered up the life of His Beloved Son, the one sinless person who ever lived, as mediator for the sins we did commit. God has given much only to ask very little. Life is a test, a proving ground for the one to come. God wants us to become more like him. That is what we are here for.
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If you are the single most powerful being in the universe, and you know it and have informed your children about it on numerous occasions, and yet they continue to offer all of their devotion to a lifeless block of wood, you aren't going to be very pleased.
We are not ants to God. He are his children. That is our relationship to him. Our personal lives are of great concern to him. If you view your new born baby as a mere ant, you aren't human. God is human in all save His perfection and intelligence.
No, it isn't. God is aware of everything that goes in the universe at all times. Even if He doesn't want to, He knows what you are doing, thinking. Those commandments concerning sex are in place to test our obedience to Him. Sex is one of the strongest carnal cravings a person can have. For restrictions on certain sexual actions to be placed upon someone, and they follow them completely, is a true act of humility and obedience.
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Link adventer in OoT was the main diminsion in witch supported his time traveling as the actual part of time so a paradox is advoided.The times Link goes into the past to alter history is more of a sub-diminsion inside the main diminsion as a support. (this creats the pocket diminsion Termina). The entirety (until his last trip into the futur) of OoT takes place in this sub diminsion upon which when Link finaly is finish with all his time traveling to defeat Ganondorf goes into the main diminsion in witch the past is not altered but was always like that. When Link is sent back into time to relive his childhood he goes upon the pocket dimision (in which Termina exist). The songs of Storms parodox can also be answered by this"Link apeared in the main diminsion to learn the song of storms and teaches it to the windmill dude in the sub-diminsion".
Really need to edit this for spelling.:\
There isn't any mention of sub-dimensions or dimension hopping in the Zelda series. While Termina could be considered a pocket dimension (of sorts), there isn't any evidence that the timeline works this way. Also, why exactly does he go back to the main dimension at the end the game if all other instances of time travel simply have him go into the past of the sub-dimension? This theory, though it does get rid of the Song of Storms Paradox, doesn't really work as explaining how the split timeline is possible.
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I think it makes more sense that they don't match the temples. They are invaders, after all.
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I don't understand why the Bible describes God as a jealous god. First of all, what happened to those seven deadly sins? He's a freaking god, and he has one of the most basic, yet disgusting, human emotions. We are supposed to be like him, to better ourselves. I suppose being an envious brat is a-okay with God!
The Seven Deadly Sins aren't in the Bible. God has commanded US not be jealous of EACH OTHER. Jealousy is an EMOTION, not a sin. Failure to restrain one's jealousy or feeding it is a sin. God is a jealous god because we hardly pay him any attention, and in some cases worship other gods, like idols or football. Being a Father like any other, He wants us to acknowledge him. Consider if we believed that you don't exist, Phantasmagoric. Everything you ever did would be attributed to something else. Another person or thing would get all the credit, affection, and notice instead. How would that make you feel?
EDIT: In retrospect, jealousy actually isn't an emotion, but you know what I mean. Also, the Hebrew word used to describe the jealousy of God is different from the word used to describe human jealousy, and is only used in reference to idol worship. So, in fact, God is never jealous as understood by English speakers.
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No. The fame you recieve once your theory of gravity is accepted will cause you to become too tied up to maintain a working relationship. You'll have to let ve go.
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ololololololololloloollololololololololololol9lololllllllllllllllllllllolololololololol
How did a 9 get in there?
The grittiest I've ever seen Mickey was in the MM comics, which I don't think ever left Italy.
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"Epic Mickey?"@_o
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So should the list be added to the Vible? Greater detail on Dustin's relation is also required...
Where does God come from?
in Serious Discussion
Posted
Then leave it alone, goodness. I don't go around saying how wacked up other religions are, even when I do know something about them.
Ministered to- taught the gospel in the after-life, for those who never learned about it on Earth. Like the millions of Pagans and Ancestor-worshipers that lived a world away from the Jews and Christains. The dead may reject the baptism if they wish. Members go the Temples to act as proxies for the deceased, usually their own ancestors, and go through the process for them. It is still, however, the departed's choice in accepting salvation.
Ah, come on! Your a mod, back me up here!