Where does God come from?

[Skippy 82]

If God knows everything, why did he put people in the Garden if he knew they were going to disobey him?

Omnipotency is interesting when combined with free will, I look at it this way, God knows every possible act that may happen, and it's ramifications, but does not know which you will do.

Like this: You can either get up and go to class, or sleep in and skip. God knows that you have both choices, and what will happen if you do either, but allows you the choice. He had the trees there because they were a part of the landscape.

Also, the fruit wouldn't kill them instantly, it would give them the knowledge of good and evil, and with that knowledge comes choice between the two, the choice to do evil is sin, sin kills.

AlsoFingers, I agree with you pretty wholeheartedly. The concept of a God is pretty much a safety blanket.

If you think about it, God is a really REALLY convenient excuse. I mean, a REALLY convenient excuse. Almost like when you ask someone why they did something and they say, "Just because." That isn't an answer. It's just wasted air. You did it, so you did it BECAUSE of something, so just stating the obvious isn't going to get us anywhere.

Yes, God could be a really convenient excuse, and has been used to justify many bad things, but honestly, most people don't do things because of God, and many who have claimed as such were mentally ill.

There doesn't need to be a "before" in God's universe, because God is God. God is just the smart bomb in this situation. If you're assuming God is a legitimate and true answer, then you can't be wrong. It's an unfair discussion.

There is no documentation of anything before human creation, everything before is theory. The "before" is irrelevant, if nothing existed before God made it, how is it different than saying nothing existed before the big bang happened? Either way, there was something created out of nothing. All discussion of creation of the universe is conjecture. Then one could also go for the idea that God did not create the universe, God just was, and the creation story is that of the earth. There are so many options it is staggering, no discussion is unfair.

Anyways Lionheart, ever hear of "happy mistakes"? I doubt you've truly seen the underbelly of human nature yet if you're really that optimistic about it, but I would say "accident" describes people perfectly. If we weren't accidents, maybe some work would be put into making us a bit more perfect and a bit less poorly made in general?

What would you like to see made better, human inadequacy isn't a matter of design, it is a matter of psychological makeup.

Also, holy texts. Pff. Like really, I don't think I would argue against how holy texts are kind of lame, there. :/ Anyone can alter them at any time. Saying the human filter didn't mess up any kind of ancient holy texts is just fabrication. Anyone heard of the Gospel of Mary? The one where women are cool and not subordinate that religious administrators detested for its apparent anti misogyny?

Yeah. Probably not.

Hence why I don;t follow a major religion. Any institution of man is, by nature, corrupt. There are so many lost "Gospels" it's ridiculous. Also, look at the fact that the Divinity of Christ wasn't officially established as doctrine till the Council of Nicaea, which also approved what was put into the new testament as we know it.

And yeah, if God were perfect, God wouldn't discipline good natured people for anything.

Eh, not really, He lays out the rules, you break them, you get the established punishment.

Also, this argument has too much Christianity/branches or alternates of Christianity in it.

I guess I am calling you guys out for having too much of a bias towards your own religion.

Popular voice is not always correct. Just louder.

But yeah. Which religions actually have pregod stories?

I can agree with this, except that most any other religion is going to have the same argument, at least a monotheistic one.

No religion has a pregod story, as there is nothing before god.

DISCLAIMER: I am a deist, I'm basing this off of my understanding of the Christian religion from learning as a child, research into it, so on and so forth. I may also be stirring the pot, these are not my beliefs.

EDIT: PH, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the tree of life.

[Mila 0]

Ok, Sha, I agree on how you agree that God is a good excuse. I still believe in one, but I don't think that he's there for a safety blanket even if we use it asd such. Humans hate being wrong, it's how we work. We acheived so much and are proud of it and feel inferior when we can't explain something, like how things came about so we throw god out as an excuse. It just stiffles our extent on gaining more knowledge. But why do the gods have to be there for us on Earth? Maybe they're there for the otherworld. Why leave your own world to mingle with inperfectionists like us? Maybe they rule that world, the other or supernatural place where the dead go to. I say the gods don't give a crap about what we do on Earth, they'll be more concerned about just sitting back and watching the show and ruling their world and setting an example for us. That's it. I don't see why we worship them anyway. "Thank you for this food you gave us" No, thank yoyurselves for going to the store and buying the food. Again I say, we rule our lives, not a deity. They are there for help if we need it. Not something to cling to and live on. Like how I use walkthroughs. I only use them if I'm really stuck. (i.e "Goddess, I don't know what's going on, so please help me") Not read ever sentence of it. (i.e *everyday going to church praying to not get struck by lightening*)

Bad things are part of the universe. Haven't you noticed however much you pray something won't happen, it does anyway but we aren't suppose to ask god why? I have. Why should I give my devote attention to him if he demands my 24/7 attention but expects me to brush things off. "Oh, he tookd my mother and father from a car crash, but I still love him" I don't do that. I say "Fate has taken away my parents, it's meant as a lesson for me to learn from. I will grieve for them and move on." Look, the God and Goddess (or which ever god or other deities you follow) are there to point us in the right way if we want it.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

1- They were the ones who needed to believe in Him the most during mortality. Just revealing himself to us doesn't test our faith. He reveals himself to those who are already so strong in faith as to have no doubt of His existance.

2- Hay, you signed up for it. And we aren't jumping hoops. [...] These commandments aren't very hard. God wants us to become more like him. That is what we are here for.

You just offered nothing.

"His few select" lol. The only thing you're saying is that the super religious folks are going to see God before them. Like if I went up to them and said "I am God as a human" they would believe me. What about all the people that doubted Jesus? Why did they see him? Why wasn't Jesus an invisible ghost? Jesus could have been just a pretty cool guy with a peaceful attitude. He could have been anyone, and his achievements could have been overexaggerated.

Also, no one signed up for this lol.

Can you honestly say that, before you were alive, you were given a "GAME START" screen? No. No one signed up for this. Incidentally, things like sex or murder might not be hard to you, but you do not represent six billion very different people. We have things called hormones, and mental disorders, and emotions, and all that stuff. Yes. For people as a whole, it can be is hard not to do these things, just like how a lion finds it hard not to kill things so it can eat every once in awhile.

Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.

One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.

Sahaqiel

[Skippy 82]

Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.

One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.

Sahaqiel

Actually, yes, you can, The garden predates the existence of man, as such, the trees were there, it was God's personal garden. When God gave man the gift of free will, he warned them of the dangers of the tree. Like I said before, God does not know what we WILL do, only the outcome for every possible scenario. He knew what would happen if man ate from the tree, and as such, warned them against it. The idea of being all knowing is misleading, and doesn't mean what most think it does.

[Ivo-goji 0]

If God knows everything, why did he put people in the Garden if he knew they were going to disobey him?

Conclusion: God is being a dick, and your beliefs make God out to be a dick.

Alternative conclusion: God doesn't know everything, and your statement is a lie.

I mean sure, if I were a father and simply HAD to discipline my children, I'd do it. But I wouldn't stick them in a room with a jar of cookies and grant them the ability to die if they so much as lick their lips at it.

AlsoFingers, I agree with you pretty wholeheartedly. The concept of a God is pretty much a safety blanket.

If you think about it, God is a really REALLY convenient excuse. I mean, a REALLY convenient excuse. Almost like when you ask someone why they did something and they say, "Just because." That isn't an answer. It's just wasted air. You did it, so you did it BECAUSE of something, so just stating the obvious isn't going to get us anywhere.

There doesn't need to be a "before" in God's universe, because God is God. God is just the smart bomb in this situation. If you're assuming God is a legitimate and true answer, then you can't be wrong. It's an unfair discussion.

Anyways Lionheart, ever hear of "happy mistakes"? I doubt you've truly seen the underbelly of human nature yet if you're really that optimistic about it, but I would say "accident" describes people perfectly. If we weren't accidents, maybe some work would be put into making us a bit more perfect and a bit less poorly made in general?

Also, holy texts. Pff. Like really, I don't think I would argue against how holy texts are kind of lame, there. :/ Anyone can alter them at any time. Saying the human filter didn't mess up any kind of ancient holy texts is just fabrication. Anyone heard of the Gospel of Mary? The one where women are cool and not subordinate that religious administrators detested for its apparent anti misogyny?

Yeah. Probably not.

And yeah, if God were perfect, God wouldn't discipline good natured people for anything.

Another point for being a jerkface of a deity.

Also, this argument has too much Christianity/branches or alternates of Christianity in it.

I guess I am calling you guys out for having too much of a bias towards your own religion.

Popular voice is not always correct. Just louder.

@Freckle:

Also, the Big Bang states that at one point, everything was a SINGULARITY. All mass, energy, and antimatter were compressed into an extremely small space. Black Holes do the same thing. It's not quite that unbelieveable, though I'd like to live long enough to see a theory that says what there was before existence.

But yeah. Which religions actually have pregod stories?

Sahaqiel

Just for that, I am quoting the entire post. There is no reason to be so inconsiderate.

Most pagan relgions have pre-god stories. The Norse most particularly. That you don't know this is shocking.

Did you read a single thing I've posted in this thread? God put the Tree of Knowledge there ON PURPOSE. He wanted us to fall. That was apart of the plan from the very beginning. By falling, we were able to learn what suffering was like. We cannot understand joy without pain. In Heaven there is no suffering, no pain, no death. We had to know all of these things to grasp true happyness. So he made an Earth for us to learn pain, to be tested.

God rarely punishes us. He teaches us. He kills us to bring us back home, not because he wants us to feel the pain death. Life isn't a horrible nightmare of agony and suffering. There are things to make us happy all over the place. Life is short. Suffering is shorter. When we leave this world, we come back to the eternities with a clearer understanding and a greater glory than we would have born perfect and in endless innocence.

God must watch our suffering and struggle every second of every hour of every day. He has given us his Son, his Son, his one perfect creation so that we might live with Him again in a paradise that lasts forever, with no other reason save the love He has for us.

Don't mock the Holy Scriptures. The Spirit says they are true. They have shaped the world YOU live in. You may not have been born, may not live in the country that you do, were it not for the Holy Bible. Respect it. Respect the religions to which you and most of humanity can thank for their identity.

[Otis McNutt 395]

Not sure really. My Dog said he was God but he was just being backwards.

[Ivo-goji 0]

You just offered nothing.

"His few select" lol. The only thing you're saying is that the super religious folks are going to see God before them. Like if I went up to them and said "I am God as a human" they would believe me. What about all the people that doubted Jesus? Why did they see him? Why wasn't Jesus an invisible ghost? Jesus could have been just a pretty cool guy with a peaceful attitude. He could have been anyone, and his achievements could have been overexaggerated.

Also, no one signed up for this lol.

Can you honestly say that, before you were alive, you were given a "GAME START" screen? No. No one signed up for this. Incidentally, things like sex or murder might not be hard to you, but you do not represent six billion very different people. We have things called hormones, and mental disorders, and emotions, and all that stuff. Yes. For people as a whole, it can be is hard not to do these things, just like how a lion finds it hard not to kill things so it can eat every once in awhile.

Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.

One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.

Sahaqiel

"His few select" are people who will serve a particular purpose in life that will impact the how the history of the human race plays out. If the actions of the Prophets, Jews, and others God has called to serve Him are not significant, then the whole of the spread of Christianity that shaped the lives of millions of people and hundreds of nations never happened.

Seeing Jesus never proved anything. He looked like a normal enough person in all respects. Besides, he did most of his preaching to Jews. They were already believers of God, they just needed to believe in him, their redeemer. The Bible does exaggerate details of his life. But you clearly aren't getting the message the writers were trying to convey.

Yes, I can, we were, get over it. We are here because we chose to. Every. Single. Last. One. Of. Us. That is what I believe.

God does not punish people who are mentally or physically incapable of following His commandments. And, for the record, a vast majority of the human race can control themselves. God is not a machine. When people require speacial treatment, He give it to them.

You act like you know every little aspect of every Christain religion. Frankly, you don't.

Skippy, the point of my statement was that the Garden was just proof that either God doesn't know everything, or he's a total dick.

One of those things is true, and nothing can possibly refute it.

Sahaqiel

I have already done this. You feel God is a dick because you simply disagree with him. Your opinion isn't a truth, it is how you feel about something. It doesn't need to be refuted, because it is no-one's problem but your own. You disagree with some one, and have turned to insulting them or deciding that they are doing their job the wrong way.

[Fingers 0]

Would you say that all people with Faith are illogical? Would you say that the human mind is, at all times, designed to be a logical matrix?

No, and no. People with faith are quite capable of logic, although they apply it selectively, excluding the fallibility of their own beliefs. Faith itself is illogical. People, too, need to train themselves into thinking with a logical process. This doesn't matter consistently, but for the major questions of life, it's important to be right, rather than assuming the dogma of previous generations.

God is not a machine. When people require speacial treatment, He give it to them.

Abundantly false. Are you aware, that some people are born incapable of compassion? These people are known as born psychopaths, and there is no hope of rehabilitation. I suppose it is part of God's great plan?

[Max 10]

I think every post in this thread should follow the words, "In my religion..."

[Ivo-goji 0]

Abundantly false. Are you aware, that some people are born incapable of compassion? These people are known as born psychopaths, and there is no hope of rehabilitation. I suppose it is part of God's great plan?

Yes. They serve a purpose in steering people in a certain direction. This world is a place of pain, suffering, heartache, and death. But it is only temporary. That spirit was placed in a body with a mind that would not work as others did for a reason. Those who have mental disabilities were ment to experience only the pains of flesh and mortality. In the after life they will have insight that none others could comprehend, and it will ultimately be the better for them. For those who were killed by madmen, it was simply their time to die. Everyone will pass eventually. The people who cannot control themselves and murder without conscience are here to show exactly how horrible it is, to show us why it is wrong.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Just for that, I am quoting the entire post. There is no reason to be so inconsiderate.

Actually, it's against the rules to do that.

Like, I have to warn you now.

Also, I would say I'm being pretty considerate. I don't see logic in your posts, only assumptions and conjectures based on the probably only vaguely-similar-to-the-original laws by which you live.

So he made an Earth for us to learn pain, to be tested.

So God's a dick.

You're talking like this is a "You don't know what perfection is if you live in it" situation. On Heaven, perfection is perfection. Even though there's nothing to compare it to, God could easily instill that knowledge in someone without having to go through this process. God is God, and people are his puppets. After the whole instilling process, life could go on in Heaven.

Don't mock the Holy Scriptures. The Spirit says they are true. They have shaped the world YOU live in. You may not have been born, may not live in the country that you do, were it not for the Holy Bible. Respect it. Respect the religions to which you and most of humanity can thank for their identity.

Many of those identities are dicks who think they are immune to being impure because they have a cross around their neck.

Like I said. The majority is not always right. It's just the majority.

I'm not mocking them. I'm stating a simple truth. The scriptures could have been edited by any one at any time, and judging how people are today with making up stuff, think about it back then, when there were no restrictions on the things you could make up.

Also, the Dark Ages were caused by religion, and I'm pretty sure that set pretty much everyone back.

Yes, I can, we were, get over it. We are here because we chose to. Every. Single. Last. One. Of. Us. That is what I believe.

God does not punish people who are mentally or physically incapable of following His commandments. And, for the record, a vast majority of the human race can control themselves. God is not a machine. When people require speacial treatment, He give it to them.

You act like you know every little aspect of every Christain religion. Frankly, you don't.

I like how you state that I should "get over it" like it's true, then end it with "that is what I believe".

Some people are born violent. Some people aren't. No matter what, it is not one person's fault for a person's wrongdoing. It's a complex chain that reverberates through nothing but history. Not great history. Small, personal histories. If anyone requires special treatment, it would be everyone.

Most mass murderers experienced something traumatic that was out of their control.

But anyway, the original point of what you were responding to in the first sentence is that no, we weren't given a Game Start screen. If we were, we weren't informed of what we were getting into, and therefore, God is deceitful.

Sure, I don't know the whole story about your religion. But I only contradict things that can't have a backup excuse. Like the Garden.

If God can do anything, God can make people know the difference between perfection and imperfection, then start off free will from there. God can skip steps. God is God.

Also, you act like you know every little aspect of every Christian religion. Maybe it's because of your self inflicted intelligence complex, but I wouldn't claim to know God from reading about him from things that could easily be tainted. Or by hearing about him from people that could easily be tainted.

It's like claiming you personally know a celebrity from watching TV about him or her.

And don't tell me the spirit of God is with you or anything either.

You know the Placebo effect? I think that's about all that has to be said there.

People can and do perceive things differently than how they happen.

I believe you should get over that.

Sahaqiel

[Max 10]

Saha's gettin viscous.

[Ops 2]

You know, let's make a linegraph of religions (I'll go ahead and admit it is biased since each religion should plot itself on the graph, but deal with it.) based on number of deities, from 0 to +∞.

a) is our graph.

0-Buddhism(Theravada), Atheism

<1- Agnosticism

1- Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, some Paganism...

2- Some paganism

3- Christianity(Some variants), some paganism

... Some Paganism

+∞- Hinduism

But wait a moment- Let's look at Christianity here, it's on there twice. Now, it's one religion, so shouldn't it be just one spot on the graph? It should. So I'll connect the two in an easy way, with a line between them, and put the 3 above 1 because they are equal. (B)

Oops, need to fix up Hinduism too. (c)

Paganism too. But obviously I'm not going to draw something for every number between here and infinity. (d)

Ignore (e), I was going to connect Agnosticism to everything but realized that'd take a lot of black lines.

So, mathematically.

1 = 3 = +∞ = 2 = n

n being any positive integer less than +∞.

...Wait, what was I trying to prove here?

Crap, I spent all that time, and I forgot.

I'll remember eventually, and post the rest, whatever the rest may be.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Yeah, I have no idea what you were getting at, and that graph is a bit poorly formatted.

[PrimaGaga 1025]

I kinda gave up on this thread, since Sahaqiel is saying everything I want to say (but don't have the words for) plus much more. I was still enjoying it though. I was following it pretty well... Then CO started pooping math. CO, you are cool, but sometimes I have no idea what you are talking about.

Anyways, please continue~