Woman vs Wife

[Chase 390]

Please, inform me of what evidence you have that supports a relationship should be equal. Biblically, the man was the head of the household. Historically, the man was the head of the household. In the animal kingdom, the male is the hunter and the female takes care of the kids. There is no record anywhere of men and women being equal. Gender sets us apart, as does race or religion. It isn't always in a negative way, though, like the family. The husband takes care of his wife and treats her with love and respect, and the wife loves and respects her husband.

I'm trying to be open minded, but so far everyone has only stated what they personally believe. Hierarchy families have worked for as long as man has existed. It isn't until just recently when women want "equality" that divorce rates are at an all time high.

Edited 15 Sep 2009 by Lionheart (see edit history)

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Sounds like a sexist type way to look at things, you know.

In the animal kingdom, mostly, the females are larger and more aggressive than the males. (Especially true for insects; the females are typically much larger and consume meat more than their male counterparts)

Take the anglerfish, a huge blow to male self esteem.

The way they reproduce, is that the smaller and feebler males latch onto the outside of the larger hunting females, and literally just become a parasite. They fuse bodies and the males leech off the females. The only reason the female tolerates this is for reproduction.

Praying mantises often bite the heads off males after/during mating.

Penguin males take care of the eggs without eating for weeks while the female goes off and gets food.

When feral cats mate, the cats are initially friendly, but then become hostile towards the male and scares him off to raise her kittens on her own, hunting for her young.

Whiptail lizards don't even have males. They just clone themselves via "turning themselves on".

The only real reason humans haven't got this feature is because human children are pretty high maintenance. They require constant attention due to their fragility and ability to reason. (As in, if you leave a baby alone, it will try to figure a way to go somewhere you don't want it to or eat things you don't want it to. Also, the skull is pretty soft in a child.) Humanity's past hunter-gatherer habits made women's nurturing of a child important. This doesn't mean they're subordinates, or should be treated any differently. They had to do what they had to do. Lifeforms' real goals are primarily survival and reproduction. Men helped with survival and reproduction. Women helped with reproduction and survival of future generations. They are equal.

What was I going to say...

Oh yeah.

It doesn't make much sense to say that a man should take care of his wife and leave it at that.

If the man gets sick, who takes care of him?

I don't think the child does.

It isn't until just recently when women want "equality" that divorce rates are at an all time high.

Yes, how dare those women want equality in the household.

By the way, I'm posting this:

There is no record anywhere of men and women being equal.

Just so you can't edit it out later.

I'm interpreting this as a subconscious slip of, "I think women are inferior".

Because that's basically what it is.

I'd like some form of rebuttal about this, because it disappoints me greatly.

The bible is not the only form of reference.

Sahaqiel

[Chase 390]

You're not listening to me. I said that I believe that men and women are equal outside of the family setting.

I never said that women are inferior, and I'm sorry you interpret it that way. In the home, it is the man who is usually the alpha, and I believe that to be the correct way. The woman is subordinate by her own choosing, not because she is inferior. The Bible may not be the only form of reference, but it is a very credible one.

[pheonix561 2080]

Please, inform me of what evidence you have that supports a relationship should be equal. Biblically, the man was the head of the household. Historically, the man was the head of the household. In the animal kingdom, the male is the hunter and the female takes care of the kids. There is no record anywhere of men and women being equal.

may I remind you that in the bible, Jesus also said we're all created equal? biblically the man was traditionally the head, but only because that was the socially acceptable way of doing things. Why would you bring every other species on the planet into this? Its true that in the animal kingdom there are species that would have the male hunt and the female nest. However, In the animal kingdom the woman is often times the larger of the two genders because she has to protect the babies. Sometimes the male is just around the get the female pregnant so the line can continue, then he goes off on his merry way and forgets all about his pregnant lover. In fact, the male seahorse HAS the babies.

It isn't until just recently when women want "equality" that divorce rates are at an all time high.

since when are women the driving factor behind divorces?

how is lesbian marriage against nature if lesbians are getting married? if they can do it, then it must be pretty natural.

Lionheart, what part of the world are you from? I want to make the point that the american constitution says all men and women are created equal, but you might not be from america.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

You're not listening to me. I said that I believe that men and women are equal outside of the family setting.

I never said that women are inferior, and I'm sorry you interpret it that way. In the home, it is the man who is usually the alpha, and I believe that to be the correct way. The woman is subordinate by her own choosing, not because she is inferior. The Bible may not be the only form of reference, but it is a very credible one.

You just said, (with, might I add, a tone of internet-disapproval of) that divorce rates are at an all time high because women wanted equality in the household. You said there was no proof of females being the alpha anywhere while listing a bunch of stuff you believe, therefore associating "no proof of women or men being equal" with things you believe and take for fact. The Bible is not a source of anything, just like mythology isn't, and is, or should be, something to gain a set of morals from, rather than a belief on self-superiority.

My interpretation is based solely on your behavior and posts. :/

Let's review a bit, and tell me if my interpretation is way too out there. Just reiterating, I don't believe you think women are inferior outside the household, but you're making it hard for me to maintain this mindset.

"Women are, or should be, equal to men when they are single."

You say that women should not be equal at some point, in a predetermined way that you think should be a standard.

"It isn't her God given right to be the head of the household, because that's the responsibility of the man, "wearing the pants" so to speak."

You're saying women don't have the "God-given right" (your standard for rights) to lead a household, placing men above women in the relationship, despite being in a "union", or, something that is unified, hinting at men having some responsibility to the family.

It's all fine and dandy here, a matter of free will, you think they're subordinate, whatever.

You then stereotype and draw a leading question of "What woman would want you to treat her like 'one of the guys'?"

Stereotyping's where I draw the line, really.

But that's not the point.

"I agree completely. I wasn't trying to make out that the woman's part was inferior, but it seems to have come out that way anyway. Yes, basically I was trying to say that men and women are different, and have different roles to play. Thank you for your post."

This is where you clear it up and gain my respect back a little.

"I don't think she should let her pride get in the way of her duty as a wife."

Pride comes into play, I start to get skeptical about what your inner thoughts are.

"A woman is not a pet. A pet is inferior to me. I am its master, and it should obey me in all aspects. A woman is a human being, and deserves a level of respect that a dog doesn't.[...] I simply believe that the man has a right to being the breadwinner and the wife should concede to that."

This irritates me for a reason not relevant to this conversation, as my view is that pets are more like roommates than slaves who should be obedient. Anyway, you say a wife should concede to the man being a breadwinner.

"What are they going to do, battle it out? Most likely the man would win due to physical stature. Are they going argue and get a divorce? Well that wasn't very successful :/ Marriage should be a give and take relationship, but I don't think a man has to hang his package on the mantle just to satisfy his wife's pride."

I'm not even sure what you're referencing, here. If it's the dog, then good job, you've made a funny[/slightsarcasm]. If it's the wife, then you've lost all bearing in my mind. You talk of pride, but you wouldn't concede to your wife, which really isn't because of her pride, (Maybe she just wants to pay the bills for awhile, which is a reasonable request) but because of your pride, ("No! I am the sole caretaker of the family and I will take care of the bills!") and I don't see a way to look at it as "The woman selfishly wants to do something and the totally not proud man bends down and kisses her foot".

The phrase "hanging his package on the mantle" doesn't even begin to make me think you're trying to empathize with the woman's situation. :/

"In the animal kingdom, the male is the hunter and the female takes care of the kids."

Then this part comes, and I give you examples, and you tell me I'm not listening and say

"I said that I believe that men and women are equal outside of the family setting."

I was giving examples of the family setting of the animal kingdom, so I don't see how I wasn't listening.

I've learned of men, for as long as I've taken history class, that have just tried to force women into the cook-clean-nurture positions you view they should be in today. It's not exactly because they had a choice. Rather, because things like the bible and sexist laws came into play, and I view us as recovering from that state of close mindedness.

The things you have told me so far mostly consist of how you think women should be inferior in a relationship.

In your semantics, what I've been reading, you believe women are inferior in a relationship.

I get it.

But I think this is wrong. :/

Please consult the nearest woman you can find and tell her, to her face, that she do not have the right to be equal to a man in a relationship.

In the end, I think this ability is the only thing that matters.

If you can, then alright, to each his own, etc., even though I believe you're still sexist in your views.

If not, you should rethink a few things.

That's all I'm saying.

Also, I think you should take a sec to read the Declaration of Sentiments.

Some of those things remind me of this argument, in parts such as

He has made her, morally, an irresponsible being, as she can commit many crimes with impunity, provided they be done in the presence of her husband. In the covenant of marriage, she is compelled to promise obedience to her husband, he becoming, to all intents and purposes, her master--the law giving him power to deprive her of her liberty, and to administer chastisement.

He has so framed the laws of divorce, as to what shall be the proper causes, and in case of separation, to whom the guardianship of the children shall be given, as to be wholly regardles of the happiness of women--the law, in all cases, going upon a flase supposition of the supremacy of man, and giving all power into his hands.

They're not exactly your views, but they're not far off.

Sahaqiel

Edited 15 Sep 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Aethix 129]

We don't live in a rainbow-and-lollypop world in which everybody is capable of doing everything equally with respect to others. Inequalities are a fact of life, and will never go away, as they are a part of the natural world itself. Men are superior to women in certain respects, and women are superior to men in other respects. These inequalities are not quantifiable, but they exist.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

I understand we have differences, and I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything.

But if you want my real stance, I believe woman and men could do anything the other could other than gender-specific things with enough determination and the correct methods. And the "gender-specific barrier" has already been broken in some places, like child birth and breast growth.

I don't think birth-assigned destinies really exist, or at least, they shouldn't.

If you want to eat sushi, that's alright.

If you want to do something a man is wont to do, then do it.

A set "way of doing things" just limits people.

If I were a father, telling my child they don't have the ability do something is just something I don't believe I would be able to do.

Sahaqiel

[Chase 390]

Women are predestined to bear children. Those are the organs they were born with. Birth-assigned destinies exist. Also, inheritance...royalty...what fraternity you can get a free pass into...These things are all examples of life's predestination. You didn't choose to be a king, but a king you must be. She might not have chosen to be a woman, but that's what she is. If she wants to change her gender, okay, but she'll never naturally be a man. She was born with woman parts, and there's nothing she can do to change that fact.

You brought up the example of men giving birth. That wasn't natural. One of two things happened. Either:

A. The man was originally a woman, and sperm was used to impregnate the eggs already inside of him to allow him to get pregnant.

or

B. The man was implanted with a fertile egg, and the baby was cut out with a C section.

Either way, it wasn't what nature intended. Men aren't designed physically to bear children, our hips aren't wide and we can't produce breast milk. Sure, you can implant and morph your body to make it appear like a woman's body, but it will never be a true woman's body.

Also, pheonix561, 4 things.

1. "pheonix" is actually spelled phoenix. Unless you meant to spell incorrectly, which I don't know why you would.

2. You are echoing Sahaqiel. Stop it, please. He already stated what you said about the female animals.

3. Jesus never said we were all created equal in the Bible. Show me the verse.

4. I'm from America, and the Constitution says "All men are created equal." :/

[pheonix561 2080]

SAHAQIEL. WHAT IS THIS. I read the same statement lionheart makes, and make my own reply, only to scroll down and see yours is much bigger, better worded, etc. way to chop my nads off, saha. good job. I hope your happy. jerk.

haha, I should just leave all the debating to you, since we seem to have the same views on alot of things.

If you want to do something a man is wont to do, then do it.

Sahaqiel

what?

[Chase 390]

Also, pheonix561, 4 things.

1. "pheonix" is actually spelled phoenix. Unless you meant to spell incorrectly, which I don't know why you would.

2. You are echoing Sahaqiel. Stop it, please. He already stated what you said about the female animals.

3. Jesus never said we were all created equal in the Bible. Show me the verse.

4. I'm from America, and the Constitution says "All men are created equal." :/

[pheonix561 2080]

Also, pheonix561, 4 things.

1. "pheonix" is actually spelled phoenix. Unless you meant to spell incorrectly, which I don't know why you would.

2. You are echoing Sahaqiel. Stop it, please. He already stated what you said about the female animals.

3. Jesus never said we were all created equal in the Bible. Show me the verse.

4. I'm from America, and the Constitution says "All men are created equal." :/

1. Im well aware of this. I spelled it wrong when I made an acount on an mmorpg five years ago, and it stuck that way. I'm totally okay with the fact its spelled wrong. your not the first person to point this out to me, let alone the first person on this forum.

2. Im well aware of this. it annoys me. He's got this habit of arguing the same arguments I have twice as well and twice as fast. frankly I find it obnoxious. that jerk. who does he think he is?

3. Jesus preached we are all equal in the eyes of god. consult any pastor, priest, etc.

4. remember the 19th ammendment to the constitution? the one saying women were equal?

[Aethix 129]

"All men are created equal."

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Women are predestined to bear children.

You don't have to birth children if you don't want to. :/

These things are all examples of life's predestination. You didn't choose to be a king, but a king you must be.

You don't have to be a king if you don't want to. :/

and we can't produce breast milk.

Actually, the only thing blocking us from growing breasts and lactating is testosterone. A few hormone treatments can make you grow breasts that lactate.

4. I'm from America, and the Constitution says "All men are created equal." :/

You did read the Declaration of Sentiments, didn't you? I linked it to you.

It's part of our government, now.

"All men and women are created equal".

Etc.

So yeah.

Sahaqiel

[Roc 8]

If the woman has a problem with being a wife, she shouldn't get married. She has freedom as a single woman to do whatever her heart desires.

Why can't she have that freedom regardless if she's married or not? That sort of irks me.

[Chase 390]

Because she makes a commitment to be a wife. If she wanted to be in control of everything, she should have stayed single and taken over a big corporation.