Forming a more perfect timeline theory

[Teto 2609]

Hey. That post was irrelevant to the topic.

Just stop it, okay? Grow up.

srsly.

Anyway, there was this guy, right? And he wrote a fan fiction about the two towers. And how it started the flood.

I think it's canon.

[Teto 2609]

SLAGR.

Question: Where are OoT, TP and WW in relation to each other?

I think it goes,

TP > OoT > WW

Due to the fact that the fused shadow is the "old" magic in TP, implying the Triforce is the new magic, and since, in OoT, it's pretty well-known seemingly. Then WW has the Deku Tree island with all the Kokiri in it, and there are no Kokiri in TP, and there is, instead a village with loads of people who aren't on neighbouring islands in Wind Waker.

Am I correct with this evidence? (Y/N)

Am I correct in my placing of the games in the timeline? (Y/N)

Is there anymore evidence to back-up/debunk my theory? (Y/N)

Edit: FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU- Can somebody merge my posts? D:

Edited 21 May 2009 by Rain (see edit history)

[Slagr 0]

SLAGR.

Question: Where are OoT, TP and WW in relation to each other?

I think it goes,

TP > OoT > WW

Due to the fact that the fused shadow is the "old" magic in TP, implying the Triforce is the new magic, and since, in OoT, it's pretty well-known seemingly. Then WW has the Deku Tree island with all the Kokiri in it, and there are no Kokiri in TP, and there is, instead a village with loads of people who aren't on neighbouring islands in Wind Waker.

___WW

OoT

[Teto 2609]

that the the developer confirmed, storyline supported line.

That sentence makes no sense.

Anyway, thank you for debunking my theory with your only evidence as "They say so.", though that is enough anyway. I just don't know how until you explain that to me, because I haven't pur much thought into this. In fact, none. I just want it proven.

[Slagr 0]

That sentence makes no sense.

actually, it does. I can't seem to find the specific rule on it anywhere, but it's something to the effect of a free modifier or possibly an appositive. That is the way you separate adjectives.

Anyway, thank you for debunking my theory with your only evidence as "They say so.", though that is enough anyway. I just don't know how until you explain that to me, because I haven't put much thought into this. In fact, none. I just want it proven.

You seem rather condescending towards my theories for not having put much thought into it. Try to be more open.

[Teto 2609]

actually, it does. I can't seem to find the specific rule on it anywhere, but it's something to the effect of a free modifier or possibly an appositive. That is the way you separate adjectives.

Indeed. I read it over again and it doesn't make as little sense as I thought. It's just that anybody who is fluent in the English language could have put it better.

You seem rather condescending towards my theories for not having put much thought into it. Try to be more open.

I just want proof.

Go, database boy. Find me an answer!

[Slagr 0]

alright, here are some themes which link TP to FSA and LttP.

TP gives background information on the Twilight Realm, which seems to reappear in FSA as the Dark World. The Twilight Mirror and the Dark Mirror share many properties, and some have asserted that the Dark Mirror is the AT incarnation of the Twilight Mirror. If that was the case, how did the Mirror appear in the new continent found by Link and Tetra? (assuming that PH is canon and they did in fact leave the Great Sea and didn't return, although it's possible they did)

TP's geographical retcons help to support the geography transformation from OoT to FSA. In my geography thread, you'll notice the near perfect match on the eastern coast. The mountains directly north of the castle are not visibly present in OoT, but TP has a mountain range to the north. Additionally, FSA's desert is too far south to match well with OoT's, but TP's desert is in the correct place. The dark tower in FSA, north of the desert, may also appear in TP as Arbiter's grounds.

The MS is perfectly bridged from OoT-TP-LttP. Originally, the ToT was supposed to have degraded into a forest in time for LttP (referenced by its location on the map: OoT's castle was wedged between the Lost Woods and Death Mountain of LttP). TP made it much more evident, in that the ToT was seen in a state up disrepair, but not yet entirely swallowed by forest. The opposing AT placement of LttP requires the MS to somehow return from the ocean where it is stuck in Ganondorf's head. There is no canon explanation for it reappearing.

TP's Interloper Legend seems to match LttP's SW legend fairly well, at least in part. If we also take Ganondorf's sealing by the sages in TP's BS and allow for the ages to combine the two legends, nearly every aspect of the SW is covered. Certainly much more thoroughly than OoT=SW does. With FSA also taken into account, the combination of the three stories makes one whole Seal War.

LttP's Book of Mudora seems to have many similar characteristics to the Book of (Ooccaa) Skywriting in TP; the unintelligible symbols can be said aloud to cause something to move. In TP's case, it allows one to use the Dominion Rod to open a doorway, and in LttP it opens the door to the desert dungeon.

Honestly, if OoT is no longer the SW (which TP and FSA seem to suggest) then a CT placement of LttP is far easier to support in terms of geography, the MS, the races of Hyrule, and storyline.

Edited 16 Jul 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[DorkLink 0]

To be honest I always assumed that the Imprisoning War took place from the beginning of OoT, through TP where Ganondorf's Gerudo body would likely have it's last appearance in that timeline, then TMC/FS/FSA would follow (I say this because there's a big influence here from the Knights of Hyrule, something else that's mentioned largely in LttP's intro backstory) with FSA being another time where Ganon's pig form is fought again, and it's interesting to note that from FSA onward you only see him in pig form, Gerudo Ganondorf doesn't exist anymore. Hence why he'd only been seen as a pig form in LttP and as a shadow form of the Nightmare from Link's Awakening. My guess is Ganondorf's Gerudo form is "used up"; he's forced to remain in pig form for as long as he exists, anytime he's revived.

The only things unexplained with my order I'm assuming, is one: how does Ganondorf go from TP dead in the field, with the Triforce of Power gone from his body, to back in pig form wielding the Trident of Power? And would FSA be the first time Ganon wields the Trident in pig form?

On a side note, just recently I made a split timeline of how I think the timeline should go in Paint; if anyone ever wants to see it and share ideas, let me know. I'm open to any suggestions and changes anyone might be able to help me make

[Slagr 0]

To be honest I always assumed that the Imprisoning War took place from the beginning of OoT, through TP where Ganondorf's Gerudo body would likely have it's last appearance in that timeline, then TMC/FS/FSA would follow (I say this because there's a big influence here from the Knights of Hyrule, something else that's mentioned largely in LttP's intro backstory) with FSA being another time where Ganon's pig form is fought again, and it's interesting to note that from FSA onward you only see him in pig form, Gerudo Ganondorf doesn't exist anymore. Hence why he'd only been seen as a pig form in LttP and as a shadow form of the Nightmare from Link's Awakening. My guess is Ganondorf's Gerudo form is "used up"; he's forced to remain in pig form for as long as he exists, anytime he's revived.

If the Four Swords saga is on the CT, then tMC-OoT makes more sense. The names of locations only change once, as opposed to changing for tMC and then back, and the general trend of landform movement fits better. The fact that neither Ganondorf nor the Triforce is ever mentioned in tMC also points to it being prior to OoT. The same reasons to put tMC on the CT apply to tMC first, but the general flow of things make more sense with it first.

The only things unexplained with my order I'm assuming, is one: how does Ganondorf go from TP dead in the field, with the Triforce of Power gone from his body, to back in pig form wielding the Trident of Power? And would FSA be the first time Ganon wields the Trident in pig form?

FSA's Ganon is actually a completely different person. He was, as in OoT, a Gerudo king, but you only meet him as a pig because he stole the Trident of Power from the Pyramid. FSA's Ganon is also called "ancient demon reborn." Prior to TP, that forced FSA to follow WW because Ganon had yet to appear on the CT. Now that TP has shown that Ganondorf did cause trouble on the CT, along with the various references to FSA and LttP in TP, a CT placement for those games seems to be more accurate.

FSA is meant to tell the backstory of LttP Ganon and his trident, so it might be the first time he wields it. I've also seen timelines in which OoX's Twinrova places LoZ's Ganon's soul in the trident, and that is what causes FSA's Ganon's transformation into pig Ganon. I personally consider FSA to be the first appearance of it.

EDIT: to clarify:

LoZ/AoL-OoX-FSA-LttP

OR

FSA-LttP-(OoX)-LoZ/AoL-(OoX)

On a side note, just recently I made a split timeline of how I think the timeline should go in Paint; if anyone ever wants to see it and share ideas, let me know. I'm open to any suggestions and changes anyone might be able to help me make

go for it; no one else posts much anymore.

Edited 28 Jun 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[DorkLink 0]

Alright here goes nothin:

Ignore the ad-bar shtuff on the right of it, kinda plain and the lines aren't straight, but this is the split timeline how I think it should be. I was sitting at my computer bored and I tried to chart out what the timeline may someday be confirmed to look like. I'm keeping it on my hard drive just in case we do finally get a definitive timeline, and I can see how close my "guesses" really are

You'll notice I left out the new Zelda Wii, mainly because it's too early in the dev stage in terms of where we can safely assume where it falls in the timeline; all I can guess is it's part of the Adult Timeline, but I'm just not sure where to stick it yet

**Please feel free to ask me to explain or elaborate on any reasons for why I've chosen the placement as I have. I'll help you to understand as best I can **

Edited 28 Jun 2009 by DorkLink (see edit history)

[Slagr 0]

That looks pretty good. the only real problem I have with it is your placement of tMC. My reasoning is posted earlier in the thread, but I can reiterate if you want.

I'd also like to separate LoZ/AoL from LttP, but an AT placement of them gives no explanation as to Ganon's pig appearance and has geography that is effectively identical to LttP, so I don't see how they could be different places.

I understand the rationale behind AT AoL, but I don't see how those connections could be retained through WW.

Edited 28 Jun 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[DorkLink 0]

That looks pretty good. the only real problem I have with it is your placement of tMC. My reasoning is posted earlier in the thread, but I can reiterate if you want.

I'd also like to separate LoZ/AoL from LttP, but an AT placement of them gives no explanation as to Ganon's pig appearance and has geography that is effectively identical to LttP, so I don't see how they could be different places.

I understand the rationale behind AT AoL, but I don't see how those connections could be retained through WW.

It's hard to really use geography behind my reasonings for sticking LoZ/AoL at the end of the Child Timeline after Spirit Tracks, but just basically how both LoZ and AoL's maps seem to both be surrounded by large bodies of water gives me the impression that those Hyrules (if they are the same or not) would have had to have existed in a time post-flood where large land-masses have been found, but nothing as big as what Hyrule used to be in the time of the Hero of Time. Basically, post-flood... the lands of Spirit Tracks Hyrule and LoZ/AoL were as big as they could ask for given the circumstances.

MC's always been a major mystery to me. Neither the Master Sword, nor the Triforce, 2 major elements of the majority of all the Zelda games are mentioned, however you see the Triforce in the stained glass mirrors in the Elemental Sanctuary. It's almost like during the MC/FS/FSA timeline, the Triforce was forgotten by the general races of Hyrule (Kokiri, Goron, Zora, etc) and over time only the Royal Family (king, queen, princess, prince) were allowed to know of it. But I really like the idea of FSA being the "precursor" to the events of LttP, where Ganon gets the Trident of Power which leads up to LttP. But if that Ganon from FSA was an ancient reborn evil that took the form of Ganon's pig form like you said it was and not the Ganondorf Dragmire/Ganon we've seen in OoT/TP/WW, would that mean that LttP's Ganon you fight at the end is the same one from FSA? Didn't LttP's Ganon originally go by the name Mandrag Ganondorf? Which kinda sounds close to Ganondorf DRAGmire...

[Slagr 0]

It's hard to really use geography behind my reasonings for sticking LoZ/AoL at the end of the Child Timeline after Spirit Tracks, but just basically how both LoZ and AoL's maps seem to both be surrounded by large bodies of water gives me the impression that those Hyrules (if they are the same or not) would have had to have existed in a time post-flood where large land-masses have been found, but nothing as big as what Hyrule used to be in the time of the Hero of Time. Basically, post-flood... the lands of Spirit Tracks Hyrule and LoZ/AoL were as big as they could ask for given the circumstances.

I seriously doubt that Nintendo developed the maps for LoZ and AoL with the intention of explaining the water 16 years later. It seems more likely that the water was the best way to vary the landscape while still providing an effective barrier for the map. You also place FSA on the CT, so I'm not sure why you would consider LoZ's water and not FSA's for timeline placement.

MC's always been a major mystery to me. Neither the Master Sword, nor the Triforce, 2 major elements of the majority of all the Zelda games are mentioned, however you see the Triforce in the stained glass mirrors in the Elemental Sanctuary. It's almost like during the MC/FS/FSA timeline, the Triforce was forgotten by the general races of Hyrule (Kokiri, Goron, Zora, etc) and over time only the Royal Family (king, queen, princess, prince) were allowed to know of it.

I usually consider the lack of Ganon/TF/MS references to imply that the game preceded any of those themes. The TF symbol around town could either be considered not canon, as Capcom is known to include elements from other games without much thought into whether or not the element really belongs. I tend to disregard it for the same reason I disregard the "triumph forks" reference in the library.

But I really like the idea of FSA being the "precursor" to the events of LttP, where Ganon gets the Trident of Power which leads up to LttP. But if that Ganon from FSA was an ancient reborn evil that took the form of Ganon's pig form like you said it was and not the Ganondorf Dragmire/Ganon we've seen in OoT/TP/WW, would that mean that LttP's Ganon you fight at the end is the same one from FSA? Didn't LttP's Ganon originally go by the name Mandrag Ganondorf? Which kinda sounds close to Ganondorf DRAGmire...

Yes, FS Ganon and LttP Ganon are generally considered to be the same person. At the end of FSA, Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword, and in the GBA remake of LttP, the Four Sword is found broken in the Dark World. This fulfills the part of the SW legend in which Ganon is sealed in the SR, and apparently when he breaks the FS seal the events of LttP begin. But that all really depends on whether or not you consider the GBA's inclusion of the FS temple canon. As for the Dragmire thing, that was a name that was made up in the English version of the LttP manual and does not appear in the original Japanese, and is therefore not really canon, but it's not really relevant either. The name similarity isn't necessary to prove that Ganon is the same between FSA and LttP.

[DorkLink 0]

I seriously doubt that Nintendo developed the maps for LoZ and AoL with the intention of explaining the water 16 years later. It seems more likely that the water was the best way to vary the landscape while still providing an effective barrier for the map. You also place FSA on the CT, so I'm not sure why you would consider LoZ's water and not FSA's for timeline placement.

Oh crap, I forgot that FSA's map was completely surrounded by water too... and seeing as I never got the chance to play Four Swords because I didn't know enough people with GBAs when it first came out, or that would be bothered to get into the game with me, so FS is also a mystery to me... was that map surrounded by water too? I'm hoping I can get a better answer when that new FSA DS game comes out; here's hoping they'll merge FS and FSA into one game/story. That would help me in terms of fitting MC/FS/FSA together in the timeline properly.

I usually consider the lack of Ganon/TF/MS references to imply that the game preceded any of those themes. The TF symbol around town could either be considered not canon, as Capcom is known to include elements from other games without much thought into whether or not the element really belongs. I tend to disregard it for the same reason I disregard the "triumph forks" reference in the library.

I really hate trying to fit MC/FS/FSA into any of the timelines in a way that seems plausible. We've been told by Nintendo exactly that OoT is the FIRST game in the entire chronology. But you play through MC and it really has that feel to it like it should be the first Zelda in terms of chronological order. I almost wanna say I hate Capcom for getting involved in the Zelda series because of it... even OoA/OoS is something I'm not completely sure of where to stick in any timeline either

Yes, FS Ganon and LttP Ganon are generally considered to be the same person. At the end of FSA, Ganon is sealed in the Four Sword, and in the GBA remake of LttP, the Four Sword is found broken in the Dark World. This fulfills the part of the SW legend in which Ganon is sealed in the SR, and apparently when he breaks the FS seal the events of LttP begin. But that all really depends on whether or not you consider the GBA's inclusion of the FS temple canon. As for the Dragmire thing, that was a name that was made up in the English version of the LttP manual and does not appear in the original Japanese, and is therefore not really canon, but it's not really relevant either. The name similarity isn't necessary to prove that Ganon is the same between FSA and LttP.

Ok that part makes more sense to me now; I don't think I ever saw that part about the Four Sword found broken in the Dark World. So if it's broken and FSA's Ganon is the one you see in LttP... does that mean Vaati is loose again too, but hanging around the Dark World? Interesting...

[Slagr 0]

Oh crap, I forgot that FSA's map was completely surrounded by water too... and seeing as I never got the chance to play Four Swords because I didn't know enough people with GBAs when it first came out, or that would be bothered to get into the game with me, so FS is also a mystery to me... was that map surrounded by water too? I'm hoping I can get a better answer when that new FSA DS game comes out; here's hoping they'll merge FS and FSA into one game/story. That would help me in terms of fitting MC/FS/FSA together in the timeline properly.

FS's map has outlying land to the north whereas FSA does not have any land beyond the island itself. This leads me to believe that FSA's map is not canon at all, as if it was placed on the AT, it would have to have land to the north for AoL to take place. Bear in mind that there's no reason the entire block of 3 games has to be grouped together. they can be separate.

I really hate trying to fit MC/FS/FSA into any of the timelines in a way that seems plausible. We've been told by Nintendo exactly that OoT is the FIRST game in the entire chronology. But you play through MC and it really has that feel to it like it should be the first Zelda in terms of chronological order. I almost wanna say I hate Capcom for getting involved in the Zelda series because of it... even OoA/OoS is something I'm not completely sure of where to stick in any timeline either

The "OoT first" quote was made in 1998 or sometime before tMC was made. I may or may not be accurate anymore. I'm actually really glad Capcom made the Oracle games. They are absolutely my favorites. As for the OoX placement, the only two possible places are after LttP or AoL, and I decided on AoL because the intro shows Link riding along the sea (which is shown in AoL but not LttP) and OoX Link and AoL both have the TF symbol on their hands whereas LttP Link does not.

Ok that part makes more sense to me now; I don't think I ever saw that part about the Four Sword found broken in the Dark World. So if it's broken and FSA's Ganon is the one you see in LttP... does that mean Vaati is loose again too, but hanging around the Dark World? Interesting...

if I recall correctly, Vaati is killed at the end of FSA.