Affirmative Action

[Rika Code 29]

Give me one good reason to have an abortion.

Rape victims

They didn't choose to conceive yet, and are probably not mentally ready for they pain of childbirth

And that child would be the constant reminder of that event

And chase, it is not just childbirth that is painful, the entire pregnancy is, the man may be partly responsible for the child's life, but they do not pay the price

[Aethix 129]

But what about the baby in that situation? "Sorry, you're rapist spawn, so we're going to tear you apart with a vacuum tube."

And if that became law, you'd have more pregnant women lying about being rape victims to get abortions than actual pregnant rape victims.

[Chase 390]

What it boils down to for me is this:

What scenario is the morally and ethically right scenario? Even for rape victims (who are going to die), I do not believe it is the "right" choice to kill the baby. Neither do I feel it is the "right" choice to keep the baby and let the girl die. In that scenario, no one wins. In that scenario, there is no morally right answer. Do what you feel you need to do.

If there is no chance the girl will die, what morally or ethically good reason do you have to abort a life? There are plenty of ways to care for the child. The responsibility doesn't have to fall on the mother. Saving a child is the morally correct thing to do.

I believe life is sacred. The right to life, even a baby's, is more important to me than the choice of a mother. The baby will grow up to be a man/woman with decisions of their own. They have that right; they deserve to live.

[Chimetals 344]

I don't see many woman paying child support. There are very few cases where the man even gets custody of his child. I would rather fight about that than the whole "woman earn less" argument because it's usually stupid.

gender roles at work--women are seen as more nurturing, so they get the kids. they gave birth to them, and most likely were the stay-at-home parent, so theyre seen as the main caretaker of the kids.

when women are no longer held to that stereotype, then theyll pay child support as frequently as men. and yes, i do believe it is a stereotype--girls are expected to find babies adorable, and want to have them. men have no such expectations thrust upon them. and inb4 someone thinks its genealogical, i was born with two X chromosomes, but had a more gender-neutral upbringing, and i find no attraction in infants.

brodongo, do you think it is morally correct to abort a baby because it was the product of a rape? Disregard the fact that she might die due to her age. I just want to know where you stand on that first point.

youre still asking a girl who was just emotionally traumatized to carry the child of the guy that raped her for nine months. she didnt want that man in her, she sure as hell didnt want his sperm in her--what makes you think shell even tolerate having his child in her at all, let alone for 3/4 of a year?

[Cirt 612]

Basically what Chimetals said

I'm not pro choice for the most part because I wasn't exactly a "planned" baby and hell, my best friend is adopted. I turned out okay, right. However I do believe rape victims should have the choice of abortion. Having sex and getting an "oops" is one thing - that's the consequence of your actions, and it's your responsibility. Being forced to do something and paying the consequence of someone else's actions that you cannot control, such as the case of rape, is entirely up to the victim to decide.

[Chimetals 344]

oh yeah, one other thing i meant to say--the claim that more women will claim rape just to get an abortion--im p sure theyd require a rape case to be opened before any attempted abortion. i mean

"hello, 911? i was raped. i need an abortion"

". . . whyyyyyyyyy didnt you come in before?"

yeah, i dont think thatd happen too frequently. and thered be a clear difference between traumatized, and "i just want an abortion, gimme" anyway.

[Brodongo 272]

And just to clarify my stance:

I 100% agree that rape victims have the right to an abortion.

That being said, once the a baby is born, regardless if it was the product of a rape, it is still a human being. And in the hypothetical situation that I was were here today because my mother was raped, and she decided that my life was worth more than the trauma, pain and 9th months of pregnancy that she was in no way responsible for, then I would agree with her, and be forever grateful. So for these reasons, I would still ask (not tell) her to consider having the child.

Do I understand a rape victim that gets an abortion? Absolutely. It's a horrible situation, the choice is rational, and I won't think any less of you.

But will I look up to the victim that decides to have the child regardless of the unfairness of the situation? Yes.

[Brodongo 272]

Imagine if that child grew up and received affirmative action

[Chase 390]

I want to make sure you all understand that I have empathy. Putting myself in her shoes, I would be terrified, abused, alone...but regardless of how you FEEL, it doesn't make it okay to do the wrong thing. It is never okay to do the wrong thing. Life is cruel, people are cruel, but there is a reason the moral choices in life are usually the hardest ones. The only time you should ever feel good/proud about yourself is when you choose to go that route.

That said, I think it says more about the depth to which our society has fallen that an abortion is even an option. Rape shouldn't happen. Ever. And everyone should be jumping at the chance to help a young girl in need. It sickens me to think someone has to even make this kind of choice. Sometimes alone.

[Cascade 741]

And if that became law, you'd have more pregnant women lying about being rape victims to get abortions than actual pregnant rape victims.

That's why abortion should be available on demand, not confined to specific reasons! You don't want women to have to resort to lying to get an abortion they desperately need, or to go to the extreme, be forced to perform the abortion themselves and risk endangering their lives. Yes, that happens in many places unfortunately! This says a lot to me about many places where abortion is fully illegal/illegal except for some cases. :/

Since this is now the Abortion Thread instead of Affirmative Action for some bizarre reason (seriously who derailed shit so far here), I'll talk abortion. As you can all probably pin down on me already, I am pro-choice, and I believe abortion should be fully legal, and an option available for /all/ situations. Now, let's not get confused here, this /does not/ mean I think abortion should be the new form of contraception people regularly use and that I'm supporting the murder of a baby. In fact, I think abortion is pretty gruesome, personally.

But woe and behold sometimes difficult things are necessary. The rape victim situation has been discussed already, and I agree that a woman definitely should be allowed access to an abortion if she was raped and impregnated, and does not wish to carry the rapist's child to term and suffer the general pain of pregnancy and childbirth. I also think it should be available if the mother's life is endangered by carrying the child to term, which I think most pro-life people would agree are okay situations for getting an abortion? Correct me if you think otherwise.

But if I'm totally honest, I think people only see abortion in a negative light because they generally believe murder of a "human being" is inherently evil. Why do we think murder is wrong? Here are three steps that I believe (and most people would agree with) need to be met in order to define something as murder. (Note I'm not talking about "when does a fetus become a human in the uterus" argument that could last 100 pages here.)

1) One reason would be that murder is generally of great pain, and causes fear and emotional distress to the individual. As far as our knowledge goes, fetuses are not sentient enough to feel pain, or consciously fear death and pain. If anything, abortion, and pregnancy in general, causes a truckload more physical and emotional pain to the mother than the fetus would ever feel.

2) Murder leads to immense emotional pain to those who were close to the murdered individual, with memories of them and the fact that they'll never see the murdered again. Fetuses don't have these connections, it's quite hard to emotionally connect to people when you're floating around inside a uterus, and it's hard to miss someone who has been inside a womb for their whole life, unless potentially you're the mother, and if you're considering/planning an abortion, then, well you know...

3) Murder destroys the person's ability to do anything with their life. Their plans, dreams, aspirations for the future, simple things like meeting up with people, watching TV, going out for a run, anything you can think of. It's all gone. Even the simple anticipation of a new day is suddenly taken away from the individual once murdered. Fetuses, whilst they have the potential to do things in the future, it has no plan, it has no anticipations, it would not regret anything, simply it isn't capable of experiencing these things. It has potential, but it has no realization of that potential in that it would make it cruel to snatch it away from the fetus.

Not only is the concept of "a fetus's human right to life" a very shady thing to me, regarding a woman's human right to control her own body and all, carrying the child to term is /not as simple/ as "oh you can just give it up for adoption if you don't want it!" Pregnancy has many serious effects on a woman's body, and childbirth is a generally horrible experience. Why would you want a woman to suffer through that just so a fetus "with potential" can be thrust into an adoption home, which /generally/ is not the best place for someone to grow up in? Adoption is not a magical solution to pregnancy and in fact only solves a fraction of the problem abortion solves.

On the "abortion will become the new contraception!!!" argument that so many pro-lifers pull out, this is not me supporting abortion as a contraceptive. No, it's clearly not one, I would seriously find it stupid if people kept creating fetuses just to subsequently abort them over and over (although I question the idea that people would rather go through the motions of getting an abortion than use contraception, this situation sounds severly rare, yet pro-lifers always bring it up?) and I believe abortion should be a last resort. Safe-sex contraception (and sex-education in general) such as the pill and condoms, /must/ be taught to children when they reach the age in which they become sexually curious and can possibly impregnate/be impregnated. I don't want kids to get pregnant, and then experience the trauma that comes with abortion and pregnancy. I don't think anyone wants that.

Unfortunately, contraception /does fail/ at times. People /can forget/ to use contraception. I think these are perfectly legitimate reasons for an abortion, as much as I don't like abortion and don't want the choice thrust upon anyone, suggesting that a /living child/ (one with actual feelings that fetuses do not have) be used as punishment for either the parent's sexual irresponsibility or a simple "our contraception use failed this time" scenario is appalling and highly hypocritical that the idea should ever be made by the people who wax poetic about the child's rights when it is a fetus.

Actually to add a few small observations of mine to this post, I've never really understood the "it's okay /sometimes/ like in the case of rape" camp, isn't the whole point of the pro-life argument that the fetus holds a special humanity to it? Otherwise you'd agree that abortion is acceptable for all cases. But it seems to be more about what the mother has done that makes it okay or not. If she was raped (usually seen in this debate as happening in a dark alley by a stranger because what is marital rape) it's okay to have an abortion because it wasn't her fault, but if she had a one-night stand, and forgot to use contraception, too bad, she has to live with the consequences of pregnancy and a living child because she's a slut? It seems to me that this debate sometimes stops being about the morality of abortion and more about the morality of women having sex.

I'd just like to also add before someone inevitably twists my words and gets offended, that if someone who was pregnant read this post, and still didn't agree with abortion, and wanted to give up their baby for adoption instead, I am fine with that! It is pro-CHOICE after all! I just don't think pro-life arguments should be used to deny abortions to other people who /do/ want them, though :/

[Chimetals 344]

Imagine not only carrying the kid for 9 months, but imagine looking at the kid everyday and seeing the rapist in his eyes

adoptionnnnnnnn

Actually to add a few small observations of mine to this post, I've never really understood the "it's okay /sometimes/ like in the case of rape" camp, isn't the whole point of the pro-life argument that the fetus holds a special humanity to it? Otherwise you'd agree that abortion is acceptable for all cases. But it seems to be more about what the mother has done that makes it okay or not. If she was raped (usually seen in this debate as happening in a dark alley by a stranger because what is marital rape) it's okay to have an abortion because it wasn't her fault, but if she had a one-night stand, and forgot to use contraception, too bad, she has to live with the consequences of pregnancy and a living child because she's a slut? It seems to me that this debate sometimes stops being about the morality of abortion and more about the morality of women having sex.

the way i see it, here are the cases:

rape--abortion is an option. otherwise, adoption.

marital rape--problem here is shed have to bring it up to the police, etc etc. i somehow get the feeling its not reported as frequently as it happens. regardless, this one depends more on the mothers feelings.

prostitutes--another questionable one, it would depend on the mother, i guess. i can see why theyd want one, with their job and whatnot, though i would think theyre on the pill to begin with, as you cant talk every client into a condom.

teenage mother--im gonna side with adoption here, as long as her life isnt endangered--if youre consciously risking getting pregnant, than you should at least have to deal with 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth. adoption is fine, here, though, as not too many teens can really handle having a baby, financially. especially if theyre no longer living with their parents.

one-night stands--another tricky case...if abortion is available, it should be buried under piles of paperwork hell, so as to encourage it as the last option, not the first (rape victims would get a speed line to the front--they dont need more crap to deal with). but the morning-after pill exists for one-night stands, i would hope that women having one would also carry the other.

and as for the fetus/human argument...i can throw in another wrench in, and say "what about embryo donation?" its not abortion, its taking out a cluster of cells <10 days old. in other words, when does it stop being a bunch of cells, and start being a baby/fetus/arguable? imo, after ten days. its gonna sound cold, but thats the chunk of field i want to get into, with cell lines and disease-curing. and you cant do the second as well without the first. though thatll start dragging the argument into what should be done with leftover embreyos from artificial insemination.

[Cascade 741]

prostitutes--another questionable one, it would depend on the mother, i guess. i can see why theyd want one, with their job and whatnot, though i would think theyre on the pill to begin with, as you cant talk every client into a condom.

teenage mother--im gonna side with adoption here, as long as her life isnt endangered--if youre consciously risking getting pregnant, than you should at least have to deal with 9 months of pregnancy and childbirth. adoption is fine, here, though, as not too many teens can really handle having a baby, financially. especially if theyre no longer living with their parents.

one-night stands--another tricky case...if abortion is available, it should be buried under piles of paperwork hell, so as to encourage it as the last option, not the first (rape victims would get a speed line to the front--they dont need more crap to deal with). but the morning-after pill exists for one-night stands, i would hope that women having one would also carry the other.

On the "abortion will become the new contraception!!!" argument that so many pro-lifers pull out, this is not me supporting abortion as a contraceptive. No, it's clearly not one, I would seriously find it stupid if people kept creating fetuses just to subsequently abort them over and over (although I question the idea that people would rather go through the motions of getting an abortion than use contraception, this situation sounds severly rare, yet pro-lifers always bring it up?) and I believe abortion should be a last resort. Safe-sex contraception (and sex-education in general) such as the pill and condoms, /must/ be taught to children when they reach the age in which they become sexually curious and can possibly impregnate/be impregnated. I don't want kids to get pregnant, and then experience the trauma that comes with abortion and pregnancy. I don't think anyone wants that.

Unfortunately, contraception /does fail/ at times. People /can forget/ to use contraception. I think these are perfectly legitimate reasons for an abortion, as much as I don't like abortion and don't want the choice thrust upon anyone, suggesting that a /living child/ (one with actual feelings that fetuses do not have) be used as punishment for either the parent's sexual irresponsibility or a simple "our contraception use failed this time" scenario is appalling and highly hypocritical that the idea should ever be made by the people who wax poetic about the child's rights when it is a fetus.

[Chase 390]

Regardless of how you feel, though, the choice should be available.

Yes. Exactly. That's why doing the right thing means something. We aren't forced into doing the right thing. That's why it's meaningful when we choose to do so. We are free.

I just think that's such a blessing. So much has been sacrificed so that we could even have that choice in the first place.