Forming a more perfect timeline theory

[Dusty 0]

If you ask me OoT's Time Paradox messes this all up and makes it almost impossible to figure out...completely anyway

[Slagr 0]

tMC is definitely before OoX because:

-the FS series leads into LttP, which features the complete Triforce that teleports Link to Holo/Lab. Assumption. AoL is the only other game with the complete TF, but I personally doubt that line. Assumption.

-Ganon has the Trident in OoX which he acquired in FSA. Assumption.

-Basically, any reference to the FSS or LttP that appears in OoX. Not even a point.

reasons why tMC could be first in the time line:

-The Minish people could not have survived a worldwide flood nor evolved afterward. Assumption.

-Gorons appear in Hyrule only before the flood. There are Gorons in WW.

-background images seen by climbing a beanstalk show a line of mountains and a river nearly identical to those underwater in WW. Most Zeldas have mountains and a river.

-various easter eggs, including a poster of (supposedly) Vaati in the shooting gallery of OoT. There are no retroactive easter eggs.

-Ok, but that forces the AT to be LoZ/AoL-OoX-tMC-FS/FSA(/-)LttP (LA wherever)

-assumption?! Ganon DOES get the Trident in FSA and DOES have it in OoX.

-it's a point, but the references are small and dispersed.

-valid assumption. The Minish are freaking tiny, and it would be effectively impossible for them to have an established society after such a cataclysm as the Flood.

-when I say AT, I mean everything after WW/PH, like LttP, LoZ, and FS/A. You're nitpicking.

-see below

-I don't see why Nintendo couldn't have based their enemy on the enigmatic image as a means of demonstrating intent.

your call there.

[Hirohiigo 0]

OoA and OoS take place before MC, because in MC, the description for the Nayru figurine reads "She is descended from a line of oracles in the land of Labrynna."

Why isn't it possible that the Nayru and Din from OoA and OoS are also descendants from a line of oracles?

Anyway, here's a diagram of my timeline:

http://www.zelda-infinite.com/htstuff/zitimeline2.png

If you've got any questions go ahead and ask and I'll explain.

[Slagr 0]

Anyway, here's a diagram of my timeline:

http://www.zelda-infinite.com/htstuff/zitimeline2.png

If you've got any questions go ahead and ask and I'll explain.

What is your reasoning for your LoZ/AoL placement? Also, I'm 95% sure FS and FSA are directly sequential, and could you explain how the OoX merger would work, seeing as characters from Holodrum know characters from Labrynna and vice-verse? I have other qualms but they're not too major. Here's my line:

............WW/PH-FS/FSA-LttP...................LA(/-)LoZ/AoL

tMC-OoT.................................\................/

............MM-TP.........................OoS/OoA

Edited 12 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[なべ 184]

-assumption?! Ganon DOES get the Trident in FSA and DOES have it in OoX. It's an assumption because you're assuming same Ganon, same Trident, same timeline. OoX and FSA can conceivably take place in separate timelines.

-it's a point, but the references are small and dispersed. It's not a point at all, unless a character said something along the lines of "My great-great-grandfather was named Sahasrahla". There's nothing definitive.

-valid assumption. The Minish are freaking tiny, and it would be effectively impossible for them to have an established society after such a cataclysm as the Flood. It's not impossible. It's implausible, but still very much possible.

-when I say AT, I mean everything after WW/PH, like LttP, LoZ, and FS/A. You're nitpicking. If you believe TMC or OoX to be in AT, then there are Gorons after WW. But it's not nitpicking; you can't just make a statement saying Gorons aren't in AT when they are in WW.

-I don't see why Nintendo couldn't have based their enemy on the enigmatic image as a means of demonstrating intent. Of course it's possible that they based Vaati on an obscure shooting gallery poster. However, stylized eyes are a common theme in Zelda, and it's much more likely that someone in the art department said "Hey, how about a ball with an eye?"

When dealing with logic, you have to consider every possibility. If arguments are sloppy, one often ends up with the wrong answer. You can't half-ass this stuff and expect to be correct, you need to be meticulous and detailed to the fullest extent. That's why timeline theorists are constantly arguing, because they don't have their facts straight.

[Slagr 0]

-when I say AT, I mean everything after WW/PH, like LttP, LoZ, and FS/A. You're nitpicking. If you believe TMC or OoX to be in AT, then there are Gorons after WW. But it's not nitpicking; you can't just make a statement saying Gorons aren't in AT when they are in WW.

I personally feel tMC is the first game in the line. I also believe OoX tales place on the CT, but is connected to the AT (I can expand on this is you wish). The point still stands, however; FS/A, LttP, LoZ and AoL (my post-flood games AT) don't have Gorons.

[Arcane 12]

As stated in the third post in this thread, OoT is first. :/

[Slagr 0]

As stated in the third post in this thread, OoT is first. :/

the Miyamoto statement is from 1998 or sometime well before tMC's development. There is as much evidence for tMC first as there is for it post-flood, although I still like it first just to frustrate you guys.

[Arcane 12]

lol. You do have a point, but I'm not sure...

[Slagr 0]

lol. You do have a point, but I'm not sure...

This time, instead of me posting evidence for first and having you all disprove it, try posting your post-flood evidence and I'll try to defuse it.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Wow, guys, why does nobody ever actually think after seeing the stupid retrospective that placed TMC before OoT simply because, "It doesn't fit anywhere else"?

In fact, it does fit, and it fits in far away from OoT, long past it, in fact. Postflood.

In The Minish Cap, of the largest pieces of proof against pre flood placement are;

1 - In the Library of TMC, there is a book labled, "The Golden Triumph Forks". This is a reference to Wind Waker's fishmen. This misconception surrounding the pronunciation of the "Triforce" only started during postflood times, the times where the knowledge of the Triforce was still thrown into obscurity.

2 - There are only a handful of Gorons left, implying they are recovering from some kind of disaster; ie, the Great Flood. In all, there are about eight Gorons in all during TMC, if memory serves. The Goron Merchant in the town's plaza also wears garments that the traveling Goron merchants used in Wind Waker, implying that this style comes along only after the flood happened, causing Gorons to conceal their face to people unfamiliar to their race. During the events of OoT, no Goron wore garments and they had a thriving city at Death Mountain, as well as sacred temples and mining spots. (Fire temple, Dodongo Cavern)

3 - In OoT, there is a scene that describes what happened to Link's mother. The beginning line is, "Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country". In The Minish Cap, everyone's pretty much at ease with each other. The Gorons definitely aren't fighting the townspeople. The Unifying War isn't going on. It's pretty unified.

4 - There are NO ZORAS in TMC. There are MANY ZORAS in OoT. There are NO ZORAS starting at Wind Waker. Clear pointer at post flood; Zora are definitely not around.

5 - The Great Deku Tree mentions that he's been around for a long time.

In the vast, deep forest of Hyrule... Long have I served as the guardian spirit... I am known as the Deku Tree...

Seeing how tall trees get after time, and his stylish mustache, he's apparently been around for definitely more than one hundred or two hundred years. (That's just assumption, but still, he's probably been around for untold ages.) So if he's been around since before Ocarina of Time, where is he in The Minish Cap? There is indeed a Picori Forest, but inside, there is no Deku Tree. It's perfectly lined up with where Death Mountain is, so rule out any possibility that they're not showing you all of the eastern portion of Hyrule. Which brings me to my next point.

6. The Gerudo have their temple of worship, their ancient treasures, and an entire desert to them. However, the desert is nowhere to be found. This is pointing towards the theory that the map in the Minish Cap isn't showing you all of western Hyrule.

7. Everyone in the Minish Cap refers to people as "humans", and indeed, the sprites are recycled characters from Wind Waker. The deficiency of Hylians only came around during Wind Waker, as Ganondorf has to actually search pretty hard for Hylian girls in his search for Zelda. Almost every person you see in Wind Waker has rounded ears. It's safe to assume that the recycled characters in Minish Cap are human, and if that's the case, there are much less Hylians than there were in Ocarina of Time, where most of the population was Hylian. The word "Hylian" has pretty much been wiped; no one says the word in Minish Cap. Ctrl + F all you want, no one knows what a Hylian is in Minish Cap. Compared to the use of the word in OoT, it seems the lack of knowledge of Hylians would only come around due to the lack of them.

8. Octoroks walk on land. Octoroks in early games such as Wind Waker and Ocarina of Time are ocean/river dwelling creatures; Octoroks' land evolutions came much later after that.

9. When you go into the sky temple area in TMC, underneath you is a gigantic ocean, and Hyrule is one of the unidentifiable specks in the water. This is a clear hint at postflood placement and also implies that the Hyrule in TMC may be New Hyrule or Old Hyrule risen, which some theorizers think is possible.

Some of these ideas were given to me by this theory, which is well proofed. Ctrl + F, search, "Placement of TMC".

As a side note, to whichever of you watched this godawful retrospective by GameTrailers.com, the hero in the beginning sequence of Minish Cap was NEVER named as Gustaf. Never. Don't even try to find proof. Because there is none. Gustaf was the Royal Spirit you found in the graveyard. And his figurine is here; Figurine #27. Go on, stare in disbelief at the retrospective's lies.

Also, OoX comes far after OoT/WW.

The very first scene is the only thing worth mentioning for theorizing other than monster biology in OoX, and it shows Hyrule Castle, surrounded by trees and long abandoned at a low elevation with the Triforce residing in it.

Let's compare.

OoX Abandoned Castle

OoT Hyrule Castle

It's at a very low elevation, and it's abandoned. In other words, it's ancient and it's sunken. Its design is almost just like the Hyrule Castle of OoT. It's been so long abandoned that the Goddesses apparently felt that it would be safe within the confines of its walls; coincidentally, the Triforce departed to the heavens during the events of Wind Waker at this very castle. Link had to travel very far, as evidenced by his horse, to get there, which implies that Link had to travel from some faraway place to get to Hyrule Castle. He most likely departed from New Hyrule.

In any case, this makes it seem like OoX is very much near the end of the Zelda timeline, or at least, far past WW.

Thanks for reading, etc.

Sahaqiel

[Arcane 12]

Saha, I love you.

[Teto 2609]

7. Everyone in the Minish Cap refers to people as "humans", and indeed, the sprites are recycled characters from Wind Waker. The deficiency of Hylians only came around during Wind Waker, as Ganondorf has to actually search pretty hard for Hylian girls in his search for Zelda. Almost every person you see in Wind Waker has rounded ears. It's safe to assume that the recycled characters in Minish Cap are human, and if that's the case, there are much less Hylians than there were in Ocarina of Time, where most of the population was Hylian. The word "Hylian" has pretty much been wiped; no one says the word in Minish Cap. Ctrl + F all you want, no one knows what a Hylian is in Minish Cap. Compared to the use of the word in OoT, it seems the lack of knowledge of Hylians would only come around due to the lack of them.

Actually, Sahaqiel, it is said once.

Heh heh heh...

To think things would go this well!

The Picori Blade and the Bound Chest

spoken of in Hylian lore...

This chest must hold that which I seek!

I'll relieve you of its contents now.

It does only further your proof though. :/

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Actually, Sahaqiel, it is said once.

My search function is kind of slow, so I guessed I missed it.

Sahaqiel

[Slagr 0]

1 - In the Library of TMC, there is a book labled, "The Golden Triumph Forks". This is a reference to Wind Waker's fishmen. This misconception surrounding the pronunciation of the "Triforce" only started during postflood times, the times where the knowledge of the Triforce was still thrown into obscurity.

This is more than likely an easter egg that was only meant for WW players to get lulz; it has no bearing on the story, so it can be disregarded.

2 - There are only a handful of Gorons left, implying they are recovering from some kind of disaster; ie, the Great Flood. In all, there are about eight Gorons in all during TMC, if memory serves. The Goron Merchant in the town's plaza also wears garments that the traveling Goron merchants used in Wind Waker, implying that this style comes along only after the flood happened, causing Gorons to conceal their face to people unfamiliar to their race. During the events of OoT, no Goron wore garments and they had a thriving city at Death Mountain, as well as sacred temples and mining spots. (Fire temple, Dodongo Cavern)

4 - There are NO ZORAS in TMC. There are MANY ZORAS in OoT. There are NO ZORAS starting at Wind Waker. Clear pointer at post flood; Zora are definitely not around.

It's just as possible that the Gorons were only just arriving in the area, and the Zoras have not yet arrived because there is a relatively little amount of water in tMC Hyrule. Their absence in WW is due to the ocean becoming harsh and uninhabitable and/or the Goddesses causing them to become Rito to keep them away from undersea Hyrule. The Goron garb is probably just Capcom recycling themes from the most recent major game, as they did with OoX and OoT.

3 - In OoT, there is a scene that describes what happened to Link's mother. The beginning line is, "Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country". In The Minish Cap, everyone's pretty much at ease with each other. The Gorons definitely aren't fighting the townspeople. The Unifying War isn't going on. It's pretty unified.

The king unified the 4 races: Hylian, Gerudo, Goron, and Zora. Since 2 of those races do not exist in Hyrule during tMC, I'd hardly cal it unified. As for the war, there is plenty of time between the games for a war. As stated in [FS I believe...] tMC takes place a LONG time before FS. If you place tMC post-flood then there are hundreds of uneventful years on the AT before FSS. If you place tMC first, there is also ample time for the Fierce War.

5 - The Great Deku Tree mentions that he's been around for a long time.

Seeing how tall trees get after time, and his stylish mustache, he's apparently been around for definitely more than one hundred or two hundred years. (That's just assumption, but still, he's probably been around for untold ages.) So if he's been around since before Ocarina of Time, where is he in The Minish Cap? There is indeed a Picori Forest, but inside, there is no Deku Tree. It's perfectly lined up with where Death Mountain is, so rule out any possibility that they're not showing you all of the eastern portion of Hyrule. Which brings me to my next point.

ok, so where is the Deku tree in TP?

6. The Gerudo have their temple of worship, their ancient treasures, and an entire desert to them. However, the desert is nowhere to be found. This is pointing towards the theory that the map in the Minish Cap isn't showing you all of western Hyrule.

Or that Castor wilds is the Gerudo Desert. LttP's desert is a swamp in the DW but a desert in the LW, so I don't see a localized drought being a problem.

7. Everyone in the Minish Cap refers to people as "humans", and indeed, the sprites are recycled characters from Wind Waker. The deficiency of Hylians only came around during Wind Waker, as Ganondorf has to actually search pretty hard for Hylian girls in his search for Zelda. Almost every person you see in Wind Waker has rounded ears. It's safe to assume that the recycled characters in Minish Cap are human, and if that's the case, there are much less Hylians than there were in Ocarina of Time, where most of the population was Hylian. The word "Hylian" has pretty much been wiped; no one says the word in Minish Cap. Ctrl + F all you want, no one knows what a Hylian is in Minish Cap. Compared to the use of the word in OoT, it seems the lack of knowledge of Hylians would only come around due to the lack of them.

This is probably due to Capcom going with the WW script since it was the most recent; similar to how they used the OoT script and characters for OoX.

9. When you go into the sky temple area in TMC, underneath you is a gigantic ocean, and Hyrule is one of the unidentifiable specks in the water. This is a clear hint at postflood placement and also implies that the Hyrule in TMC may be New Hyrule or Old Hyrule risen, which some theorizers think is possible.

so this background shows Hyrule as an island, but the backgrounds for Veil Falls, Mt. Crenel, and climbing a beanstalk all point to a continental Hyrule. I'd hazard to guess the Sky Temple really is that high.

Some of these ideas were given to me by this theory, which is well proofed. Ctrl + F, search, "Placement of TMC".

Remind me to read the rest of that someday. I am a member of that forum too, and you're actually lucky you've got me arguing tMC first and not this other guy... he's crazy... But it seems like most of the points posted there were also reposted by you, except for the assertion that the tMC humans don't know of the Triforce. This is simply stupid to be honest... every archway in tMC's Hyrule town has a big winged Triforce emblem adorning its peak.

Also, OoX comes far after OoT/WW.

The very first scene is the only thing worth mentioning for theorizing other than monster biology in OoX, and it shows Hyrule Castle, surrounded by trees and long abandoned at a low elevation with the Triforce residing in it.

Since when did OoT Hyrule castle have the complete, tangible Triforce? You'll recall that LttP's castle also lies at low elevation and DEFINITELY has the TF.

Let's compare.

OoX Abandoned Castle

OoT Hyrule Castle

It's at a very low elevation, and it's abandoned. In other words, it's ancient and it's sunken. Its design is almost just like the Hyrule Castle of OoT. It's been so long abandoned that the Goddesses apparently felt that it would be safe within the confines of its walls; coincidentally, the Triforce departed to the heavens during the events of Wind Waker at this very castle. Link had to travel very far, as evidenced by his horse, to get there, which implies that Link had to travel from some faraway place to get to Hyrule Castle. He most likely departed from New Hyrule.

In any case, this makes it seem like OoX is very much near the end of the Zelda timeline, or at least, far past WW.

The castles can not automatically be assumed to be the same for the same reason WW's and FSA's castles aren't the same.

remind me to post a better picture of WW's castle >.> Google fails.

thanks for posting! etc!

as for the retrospective, I've never seen it but I plan to for nostalgia. Unless it's officially approved by Nintendo I'd never use it for evidence.

The octorok evidence is the strongest argument, but it may be due to the fact that no handheld to that point had water-based octoroks and Capcom was trying to create a good game that didn't rock the boat too much by sticking to past excursions (such as OoX).

exceeded quotes or something... Had to trim it down a bit.

Edited 16 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)