Forming a more perfect timeline theory

[Hirohiigo 0]

What is your reasoning for your LoZ/AoL placement?

The legend that Impa tells to Link in AoL is of the very first Princess Zelda, and that very first Princess Zelda is the one that's still in the eternal sleep in the Northern Palace in AoL. She would have been killed and the Northern Palace destroyed in the Flood, meaning AoL cannot take place in the New Hyrule timeline.

Also, I'm 95% sure FS and FSA are directly sequential,

I highly doubt it. FSA's prologue refers to two ancient heroes who sealed away Vaati - those being TMC Link and FS Link. There's nothing to support the idea that FS and FSA are the same Link.

and could you explain how the OoX merger would work, seeing as characters from Holodrum know characters from Labrynna and vice-verse?

I do think that Labrynna and Holodrum exist together, but because you can start with either game, I consider it to be canon that both games start at the beginning and both games are the second. Therefore, in the New Hyrule Timeline, OoA is the first, and in the Old Hyrule Timeline, OoS is the first.

Wow, guys, why does nobody ever actually think after seeing the stupid retrospective that placed TMC before OoT simply because, "It doesn't fit anywhere else"?

What retrospective are you talking about?

1 - In the Library of TMC, there is a book labled, "The Golden Triumph Forks". This is a reference to Wind Waker's fishmen. This misconception surrounding the pronunciation of the "Triforce" only started during postflood times, the times where the knowledge of the Triforce was still thrown into obscurity.

I don't see how it's impossible that this mispronunciation could exist anywhere else in the timeline.

2 - There are only a handful of Gorons left, implying they are recovering from some kind of disaster; ie, the Great Flood. In all, there are about eight Gorons in all during TMC, if memory serves. The Goron Merchant in the town's plaza also wears garments that the traveling Goron merchants used in Wind Waker, implying that this style comes along only after the flood happened, causing Gorons to conceal their face to people unfamiliar to their race. During the events of OoT, no Goron wore garments and they had a thriving city at Death Mountain, as well as sacred temples and mining spots. (Fire temple, Dodongo Cavern)

We don't see Death Mountain in the Minish Cap. Just Mt. Crenel, which is nowhere near the location of Death Mountain. Death Mountain isn't even in the game, which leads to the idea that Hyrule hasn't expanded to Death Mountain yet, therefore, the Gorons are all foreigners in this game. Being foreigners is a good reason to not have high numbers in Hyrule.

3 - In OoT, there is a scene that describes what happened to Link's mother. The beginning line is, "Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country". In The Minish Cap, everyone's pretty much at ease with each other. The Gorons definitely aren't fighting the townspeople. The Unifying War isn't going on. It's pretty unified.

Hyrule doesn't refer to the country in TMC though. If you had paid attention, every time they say, "Hyrule," they're referring to Hyrule Town. The city, not the kingdom. This means there's still time for the country to be unified.

4 - There are NO ZORAS in TMC. There are MANY ZORAS in OoT. There are NO ZORAS starting at Wind Waker. Clear pointer at post flood; Zora are definitely not around.

Just as there is no Death Mountain in Wind Waker, there is also no Zora's Domain. Hyrule has likely not expanded to Zora's Domain yet, and therefore there would be no reason to see Zoras.

Also there were Zoras in PH.

Seeing how tall trees get after time, and his stylish mustache, he's apparently been around for definitely more than one hundred or two hundred years. (That's just assumption, but still, he's probably been around for untold ages.) So if he's been around since before Ocarina of Time, where is he in The Minish Cap? There is indeed a Picori Forest, but inside, there is no Deku Tree. It's perfectly lined up with where Death Mountain is, so rule out any possibility that they're not showing you all of the eastern portion of Hyrule. Which brings me to my next point.

There are no Lost Woods in TMC. The Minish Woods are not the Lost Woods.

Also, if it's post-WW, then where IS the Deku Tree? There was a Deku Tree in WW. If you're adamant on that point then I wonder what your idea is on this.

7. Everyone in the Minish Cap refers to people as "humans", and indeed, the sprites are recycled characters from Wind Waker. The deficiency of Hylians only came around during Wind Waker, as Ganondorf has to actually search pretty hard for Hylian girls in his search for Zelda. Almost every person you see in Wind Waker has rounded ears. It's safe to assume that the recycled characters in Minish Cap are human, and if that's the case, there are much less Hylians than there were in Ocarina of Time, where most of the population was Hylian. The word "Hylian" has pretty much been wiped; no one says the word in Minish Cap. Ctrl + F all you want, no one knows what a Hylian is in Minish Cap. Compared to the use of the word in OoT, it seems the lack of knowledge of Hylians would only come around due to the lack of them.

There's evidence that Hylians weren't the most populous race in OoT, either. Here's a quote from the game:

"They say we Hylians have big ears

in order to hear the voices of the

gods...but I've never heard them!"

This is said from a standpoint of a minority. If Hylians were everyday people, there would be no need to go, "We Hylians." Obviously there are a substantial amount of people with rounded ears, and many can even be seen in-game, e.g. the Gerudos, the potion shop keeper, etc.

[Teto 2609]

ok, so where is the Deku tree in TP?

Forest Temple, anyone?

Due to its similar appearance and the presence of the Kokiri symbol (which appeared within the Deku Tree in Ocarina of Time), and the fact that the entrance to the Temple is situated within a massive tree stump, this temple could possibly be the deceased remains of the Great Deku Tree.

[Chase 390]

Forest Temple, anyone?

What about the new deku sprout? He sprouted after Link beat the forest temple. Unless TP takes place in Hyrule A and not Hyrule B. Then the deku sprout would have never sprouted and this could be right.

New train of thought:

Also, it's worth noting that on the Virtual Console menu for Ocarina of Time it says that it is Link and Zelda's first adventure to save Hyrule.

Another new train of thought:

And A LINK TO THE PAST is the LAST game in the timeline. Or the last game to use the Master Sword, at least.

"AND THE MASTER SWORD SLEEPS AGAIN...

FOREVER!" -ALTTP Ending.

Edited 16 Apr 2009 by zeldafancs (see edit history)

[Teto 2609]

Hyrule A and B?

Also, the trees could have fused together or something? Is there another tree within the one of Twilight Princess or something like the one inside of the tree in Wind Waker?

I have no idea really, I'm just speculating here.

[Chase 390]

Hyrule A and B?

Also, the trees could have fused together or something? Is there another tree within the one of Twilight Princess or something like the one inside of the tree in Wind Waker?

I have no idea really, I'm just speculating here.

Hyrule A and B are used in the timeline theory devised by gametrailers. I don't agree with it, but I do agree with the split timeline.

Hyrule A is the childhood that Link went back to. After defeating Ganon, Link was sent back 7 years by Zelda and got to relive his childhood.

Hyrule B is the world that Link left behind, the same one you fought and sealed Ganon away in.

I am 99.9% sure the deku tree from Wind Waker is the same deku sprout from Ocarina of Time. There isn't another tree inside the tree of Twilight Princess, so that leads me to believe that Twilight Princess didn't take place in Hyrule B. But that is a good theory, the Forest Temple in Twilight Princess could be the Deku Tree from Hyrule A, because he never sprouted.

That would put Wind Waker and Twilight Princess on opposite timelines.

[Slagr 0]

The legend that Impa tells to Link in AoL is of the very first Princess Zelda, and that very first Princess Zelda is the one that's still in the eternal sleep in the Northern Palace in AoL. She would have been killed and the Northern Palace destroyed in the Flood, meaning AoL cannot take place in the New Hyrule timeline.

the very first? So AoL's Zelda is tMC's Zelda or a Zelda from before that, but asleep and frozen in time? That seems unlikely... I'd just call her a new Zelda and put the BS somewhere before the game.

Hyrule A and B are used in the timeline theory devised by gametrailers. I don't agree with it, but I do agree with the split timeline.

Hyrule A is the childhood that Link went back to. After defeating Ganon, Link was sent back 7 years by Zelda and got to relive his childhood.

Hyrule B is the world that Link left behind, the same one you fought and sealed Ganon away in.

it's easier to say AT: adult timeline (WW->) and CT: child timeline (MM->)

I am 99.9% sure the deku tree from Wind Waker is the same deku sprout from Ocarina of Time. There isn't another tree inside the tree of Twilight Princess, so that leads me to believe that Twilight Princess didn't take place in Hyrule B. But that is a good theory, the Forest Temple in Twilight Princess could be the Deku Tree from Hyrule A, because he never sprouted.

WW's GDT is assumed to be OoT's sprout, but there isn't much to really prove TP's temple is the OoT GDT. The symbol thingy is probably just a recycled theme from past games with little intent behind its inclusion.

That would put Wind Waker and Twilight Princess on opposite timelines.

that is generally accepted based on Ganondorf's disposition in the games. He does not know Link or the MS in TP (on the CT because Ganondorf was sealed without meeting Link) but he does know Link and the MS in WW because WW Ganondorf is the same consciousness (and maybe body) as OoT's Ganondorf. The GDT is further evidence and probably intent.

New train of thought:

Also, it's worth noting that on the Virtual Console menu for Ocarina of Time it says that it is Link and Zelda's first adventure to save Hyrule.

It's also worth mentioning that the end of tMC implies that it is Link's first adventure:

"Thus did Link's quest come to an end. But surely, this is not the end of Zelda and Link's adventures in Hyrule. The legend will continue..."

sure, it could simply imply that it is this particular Link's first adventure, but this particular one has yet to appear in any other games and no other game includes an ending like this. It seems like clear intent to me.

Another new train of thought:

And A LINK TO THE PAST is the LAST game in the timeline. Or the last game to use the Master Sword, at least.

"AND THE MASTER SWORD SLEEPS AGAIN...

FOREVER!" -ALTTP Ending.

NO. stop posting this as evidence... please... While the game may say such a thing, why in the world would Nintendo uphold that statement? It limits their freedom to develop settings for games. I've also yet to see a LttP-last timeline without disastrous flaws. If the quote is meant to mean anything, it's that the Hylians thought it would sleep forever becuase they don't understand just how tenacious Ganon is. Technically, the quote still fits my line even though I disagree with it, unless you consider OoX's MS to be canon/LttP's MS. I personally believe the OoX MS is the CT's MS, but another day perhaps.

Edited 16 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[Chase 390]

NO. stop posting this as evidence... please... While the game may say such a thing, why in the world would Nintendo uphold that statement? It limits their freedom to develop settings for games. I've also yet to see a LttP-last timeline without disastrous flaws. If the quote is meant to mean anything, it's that the Hylians thought it would sleep forever becuase they don't understand just how tenacious Ganon is. Technically, the quote still fits my line even though I disagree with it, unless you consider OoX's MS to be canon/LttP's MS. I personally believe the OoX MS is the CT's MS, but another day perhaps.

I'm not going to argue what's plainly included in the game for everyone to see. Why would Nintendo uphold that statement? Integrity perhaps?

Since we don't have a clear grasp of the timeline, I'm confident it doesn't limit their freedom to develop settings at all, they've done well so far.

Because the statement ends in an exclamation point and not a question mark, I take it as fact. If you write it off as a false statement, how can ALLTP's integrity to the timeline be upheld? You might as well claim it has nothing to do with any of the other games.

Also, it doesn't make sense for you to say that ALTTP's ending is any less canon than TMC's. Yet you quoted that ending and seem to have full faith in its truthfulness.

[Slagr 0]

I'm not going to argue what's plainly included in the game for everyone to see. Why would Nintendo uphold that statement? Integrity perhaps?

integrity doesn't seem to be a problem as they may have already changed the Seal War from OoT to FSA. (the Seal War is mentioned in the LttP BS)

Since we don't have a clear grasp of the timeline, I'm confident it doesn't limit their freedom to develop settings at all, they've done well so far.

The MS is the most well known item in the series. I HIGHLY doubt they would retire it simply because they wrote something back in 1991.

Because the statement ends in an exclamation point and not a question mark, I take it as fact. If you write it off as a false statement, how can ALLTP's integrity to the timeline be upheld? You might as well claim it has nothing to do with any of the other games.

It obviously has a major role in the other games. It's not necessarily false, but I don't interpret it as the devs saying "the Master Sword will not be appearing in any more games after this point."

Also, it doesn't make sense for you to say that ALTTP's ending is any less canon than TMC's. Yet you quoted that ending and seem to have full faith in its truthfulness.

tMC's ending quote does not limit the developers, and it was more recent. Back in 1991 they were not concerned with the timeline. Since about 2002 they started attempting to fit the games together, so I'd say LttP's quote may have been canon at the time but isn't necessarily a binding clause anymore, while tMC's quote was made during the period where chronology was relevant to the series as a whole.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

This is more than likely an easter egg that was only meant for WW players to get lulz; it has no bearing on the story, so it can be disregarded.

It's not your place to determine what is and what is not just an easter egg or what does not have any significance. It is canon, therefore it can be used as evidence.

It's just as possible that the Gorons were only just arriving in the area, and the Zoras have not yet arrived because there is a relatively little amount of water in tMC Hyrule. Their absence in WW is due to the ocean becoming harsh and uninhabitable and/or the Goddesses causing them to become Rito to keep them away from undersea Hyrule. The Goron garb is probably just Capcom recycling themes from the most recent major game, as they did with OoX and OoT.

While possible the Gorons were just arriving, the Zora could have inhabited Lake Hylia; Zora are not exclusively freshwater or saltwater creatures. The Zora had a temple in Lake Hylia during OoT; they could have lived in Lake Hylia. And you only back up my point; the Zora were not around in WW, which was clearly after OoT. Also, it doesn't matter if Capcom was recycling themes, it's still canon and usable as legitimate proof. It's like saying, "God works in mysterious ways". The saying completely debunks any point you're trying to make. :|

"Oh, Wind Waker isn't after Ocarina of Time; it's probably just some reference to a previous game Nintendo used to get fans to like it."

The king unified the 4 races: Hylian, Gerudo, Goron, and Zora. Since 2 of those races do not exist in Hyrule during tMC, I'd hardly cal it unified. As for the war, there is plenty of time between the games for a war. As stated in [FS I believe...] tMC takes place a LONG time before FS. If you place tMC post-flood then there are hundreds of uneventful years on the AT before FSS. If you place tMC first, there is also ample time for the Fierce War.

Only two races are existent because the Zora were either wiped out or evolved in WW and the Gerudo's canyon isn't even in view of MC's map. There were also no Gerudo around during WW.

They're unified; a Goron is sitting in the middle of the town plaza. Saying people were hostile towards the Gorons would be a bit lame on your part.

ok, so where is the Deku tree in TP?

Hidden, I suspect?

I'd say this is the best counter you've given me.

Or that Castor wilds is the Gerudo Desert. LttP's desert is a swamp in the DW but a desert in the LW, so I don't see a localized drought being a problem.

If Castor Wilds is Gerudo Desert you're only giving me some plausible evidence. After a huge ocean just got rained upon the land, I think even a Desert would become a little damp. The Gerudo Desert is northewest in the OoT map and southwest on the Minish Cap map. This is evidence points to Minish Cap being new Hyrule, since plate tectonics probably couldn't work fast enough. But geography is always pretty hard to use as evidence; they change the land around a lot.

This is probably due to Capcom going with the WW script since it was the most recent; similar to how they used the OoT script and characters for OoX.

Since when did you become the all-knowing Nintendo-Capcom script-writer? Give me some examples.

I'd hazard to guess the Sky Temple really is that high.

Apparently it is.

Remind me to read the rest of that someday. I am a member of that forum too, and you're actually lucky you've got me arguing tMC first and not this other guy... he's crazy... But it seems like most of the points posted there were also reposted by you, except for the assertion that the tMC humans don't know of the Triforce. This is simply stupid to be honest... every archway in tMC's Hyrule town has a big winged Triforce emblem adorning its peak.

The Triforce was plastered all over Hyrule Castle in OoT too. Because the Royal Family guards it as a secret. However, the knowledge of the Triforce is apparently so long gone, either nobody references it, or its name has evolved into the "Light Force". Check and check again; this time I'm certain. Nobody says "triforce" in the Minish Cap. The words "Light Force" are certainly popular, however.

Since when did OoT Hyrule castle have the complete, tangible Triforce? You'll recall that LttP's castle also lies at low elevation and DEFINITELY has the TF.

So LttP's castle is also completely abandoned and has a design that resembles OoT's Hyrule Castle at every visible vertex?

Also, where is proof that LttP's castle lies at a low elevation? It's flat, just like the 2D game it resides in. And since Hyrule Castle is based on medieval European-style castles, I don't think they'd have it at a very low elevation, one that might even be below sea level.

The octorok evidence is the strongest argument, but it may be due to the fact that no handheld to that point had water-based octoroks and Capcom was trying to create a good game that didn't rock the boat too much by sticking to past excursions (such as OoX).

I'd like to know where the opinions stop and the proof starts.

Also, Veil Falls couldn't be anything but Death Mountain. Death Mountain was the home of Biggoron and was also directly east of Hyrule Castle.

"The castles can not automatically be assumed to be the same for the same reason WW's and FSA's castles aren't the same."

I think they can be assumed to be the same, because there is no proof linking WW's and FSA's castles together, or at least, there isn't as much proof as binding the castle from OoT and OoX together. OoT castle was surrendered to the sea in WW. The circular change could have been to fit the style.

Sahaqiel

Edited 17 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Arcane 12]

Everything is sound as far as I can tell, but one thing:

Mt. Crenel is west of Hyrule Town, and also, Biggoron is found at Veil Falls.

More proof towards the "New Hyrule" theory, eh?

[Sahaqiel 1232]

No, it was my bad.

I fixed it.

Sahaqiel

[Arcane 12]

Alright.

Wow. This is really interesting. (I kind of wish I had something to contribute.... I'll think of something....)

[Slagr 0]

It's not your place to determine what is and what is not just an easter egg or what does not have any significance. It is canon, therefore it can be used as evidence.

It's not my place to tell you something with no bearing on the story is an easter egg, but it' your place to tell me that it is canon? If you accept Triumph Forks as canon, I get to use the Vaati poster in OoT.

While possible the Gorons were just arriving, the Zora could have inhabited Lake Hylia; Zora are not exclusively freshwater or saltwater creatures. The Zora had a temple in Lake Hylia during OoT; they could have lived in Lake Hylia. And you only back up my point; the Zora were not around in WW, which was clearly after OoT. Also, it doesn't matter if Capcom was recycling themes, it's still canon and usable as legitimate proof. It's like saying, "God works in mysterious ways". The saying completely debunks any point you're trying to make. :|

"Oh, Wind Waker isn't after Ocarina of Time; it's probably just some reference to a previous game Nintendo used to get fans to like it."

tMC's Lake Hylia is very densely covered in trees, not to mention quite small. In OoT and TP Lake Hylia is quite large and only sparsely wooded. tMC's Lake seems relatively inhospitable compared to the 3d games. I never said anything about Zoras being salt/fresh water exclusive; they clearly live in the ocean in MM. And just because we don't see something doesn't mean it's extinct. It does matter if Capcom was recycling themes, because OoX does not occur right after OoT and MM. WW is definitely after OoT, because there were specific references to OoT's storyline made in WW's storyline.

Only two races are existent because the Zora were either wiped out or evolved in WW and the Gerudo's canyon isn't even in view of MC's map. There were also no Gerudo around during WW.

They're unified; a Goron is sitting in the middle of the town plaza. Saying people were hostile towards the Gorons would be a bit lame on your part.

Who said the Fierce War involved EVERY SINGLE RACE fighting each other? It's more likely that when the Gerudo arrived there was some sort of conflict. Also, did you read that part about hundreds of years between tMC and OoT? Plenty of time for a war.

Hidden, I suspect?

I'd say this is the best counter you've given me.

Thank you.

If Castor Wilds is Gerudo Desert you're only giving me some plausible evidence. After a huge ocean just got rained upon the land, I think even a Desert would become a little damp. The Gerudo Desert is northewest in the OoT map and southwest on the Minish Cap map. This is evidence points to Minish Cap being new Hyrule, since plate tectonics probably couldn't work fast enough. But geography is always pretty hard to use as evidence; they change the land around a lot.

TP takes place in the same place as OoT and is more recent, so that makes TP's map more canon than OoT's, and the deserts line up. Retcon is always important, especially geographically. Also, if the flood had caused the desert to become a swamp, why is lake Hylia so small? Why is there an established graveyard and other ruins in a freshly deflooded area? (this is assuming you're arguing a resurface line)

Since when did you become the all-knowing Nintendo-Capcom script-writer? Give me some examples.

it's not just script; it's everything.

OoT/MM cameos in OoX:

the hide and seek fairies in OoA = the stray fairies of MM

Tingle

Biggoron

the carpenters

Epona (in intro)

OoA's Maku Sprout looks exactly like the GDT's sprout

Jabu Jabu

King Zora (with the assumption that not all Zora Kings are of similar stature)

Twinrova

Talon and Malon

Venus, Queen of Fairies

Happy Mask Salesman

Ingo

Syrup

Deku Sprouts (salesmen, seed-shooters, etc)

WW et al cameos in tMC:

Tingle and Bros.

Postman

Beedle

Goron Merchant

Talon and Malon

Biggoron

Dampe'

The Oracles

Ingo

Syrup

and anyone too minor to be found in a timely manner.

The Triforce was plastered all over Hyrule Castle in OoT too. Because the Royal Family guards it as a secret. However, the knowledge of the Triforce is apparently so long gone, either nobody references it, or its name has evolved into the "Light Force". Check and check again; this time I'm certain. Nobody says "triforce" in the Minish Cap. The words "Light Force" are certainly popular, however.

http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/zelda-...everything.html

my thoughts on the subject: The Light force is the condensed power of the royal family while the TF is the condensed power of the goddesses. Iin tMC the TF's power is still a secret, but the Light force is known well enough to attract Vaati.

So LttP's castle is also completely abandoned and has a design that resembles OoT's Hyrule Castle at every visible vertex?

Also, where is proof that LttP's castle lies at a low elevation? It's flat, just like the 2D game it resides in. And since Hyrule Castle is based on medieval European-style castles, I don't think they'd have it at a very low elevation, one that might even be below sea level.

see my list of recycled themes. Also bear in mind that, if we're talking strictly castle style, WW's underwater castle is not OoT's castle. Of course it is, but your argument is invalid. As for the castle being deserted... prove it? We only see one room. Plus, the manual says, "One day in Hyrule, a strange force drew Link deep within Hyrule Castle..." There is no mention of desertion or that the castle was ruined; it seems to suggest instead that Link was a long-time citizen of Hyrule and familiar with the castle to some extent.

as for LttP's elevation:

The mountains are clearly in the right place, and the cliff upon which Link sits is near the desert. That is all that the intro picture shows.

also:

compare that to the OoX intro. Same place?

EDIT: Since OoT's castle was destroyed at the end of the game, could they have rebuilt it as WW's castle? It's unlikely they'd remake it exactly the same as the old OoT one, and it'd explain the architectural differences.

Also, Veil Falls couldn't be anything but Death Mountain. Death Mountain was the home of Biggoron and was also directly east of Hyrule Castle.

Biggoron lives in Holodrum too. The fact that the mountains are in the same general arrangement from the Castle is pure coincidence. Besides, are you implying that the water crashing into Old Hyrule at the end of WW didn't destroy everything? Are you implying that Daphnes wish to the TF (that old Hyrule would remain buried) didn't come true?

EDIT: wait... Veil falls = OoT Death Mountain supports tMC first... huh...

"The castles can not automatically be assumed to be the same for the same reason WW's and FSA's castles aren't the same."

I think they can be assumed to be the same, because there is no proof linking WW's and FSA's castles together, or at least, there isn't as much proof as binding the castle from OoT and OoX together. OoT castle was surrendered to the sea in WW. The circular change could have been to fit the style.

So OoT's castle = WW castle = OoX castle = tMC castle? They change style every game! EDIT: read the edit under the pictures above /EDIT Also, Capcom didn't know about WW's ending when they made OoX.

if we take some of your statements regarding OoX and tMC's relationship to OoT and WW, then OoX has to come right after resurfacing, and somehow Link found the TF in Old Hyrule Castle. You go on to say that tMC takes place in the same place, but no one knows of the TF?

I exceeded quotes again (why 10??) but I wanted to respond to your "I'd like to know where the opinions stop and the proof starts." I'd like to know too. The fact that we can exchange views like this with very little actual proof seems to imply that there is not enough information to completely prove either side: the point I'm trying to make.

Edited 17 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Quotation marks and italics are probably easier for a thing like this.

"It's not my place to tell you something with no bearing on the story is an easter egg, but it' your place to tell me that it is canon? If you accept Triumph Forks as canon, I get to use the Vaati poster in OoT."

It's in the game; it's canon. If Soul Calibur made a Zelda stage with a library that had a book labeled, "Triumph Forks", then it wouldn't be. But it is.

Sure, if the poster says, "Vaati" under it and has the same appearance in every aspect.

I haven't seen the poster you're speaking of, but it's probably not as clear as "Triumph Forks".

"tMC's Lake Hylia is very densely covered in trees, not to mention quite small. In OoT and TP Lake Hylia is quite large and only sparsely wooded. And just because we don't see something doesn't mean it's extinct. It does matter if Capcom was recycling themes, because OoX does not occur right after OoT and MM. WW is definitely after OoT, because there were specific references to OoT's storyline made in WW's storyline."

If not Lake Hylia, then they could live on land. But oh, wait, there is no fishing trade mentioned in MC. There was a Zora living in a shack in OoA, but he lived near a source of fish. Zora could take this lifestyle on in MC, but Lake Hylia, as your said, is a bit hostile. Hostile waters aren't very known for their fish, as evidenced by Wind Waker.

However, in Lake Hylia of OoT, it had fish nearby, in the fishing hole. Lack of fish, and it seems, everything else, appears to have happened during and after the Great Flood.

It doesn't matter if Capcom recycled themes because it's a Zelda game that was made under Nintendo's supervision and approved by them, and is therefore represented in the timeline; you can't just stop and say, "Wait, this official Zelda game's evidence doesn't count because they used themes similar to a previous game."

So, all easter eggs don't matter in a timeline? Alright. So Hena, the fishing hole lady, isn't necessarily a descendant of the fisherman in OoT, even though she has his picture and has similar patterns in behavior as him? And the picture could be any fisherman? All because it has no significance in the story? Thus, you can't use this to prove TP is after OoT?

Alright.

"Who said the Fierce War involved EVERY SINGLE RACE fighting each other?"

Who said it didn't?

It's more likely that when the Gerudo arrived there was some sort of conflict. Also, did you read that part about hundreds of years between tMC and OoT? Plenty of time for a war.

More likely? Explain.

I would think it's less likely. In LttP, people were hostile more towards Zora than the Gerudo. However, in Ocarina of Time, the Gerudo were on alright terms with Hyrule during OoT. Under Nabooru's leadership, they only stole in a fashion similar to Robin Hood, taking from the rich and giving to the poor; their ruthless thievery only occurred during Ganondorf's rule. The Unifying War took place within Link's lifespan, therefore, if the Gerudo were among the combatants, their rule wouldn't have been under a male; male leaders are only born every hundred years, and Ganondorf isn't that old. Their rule would have been under Nabooru, an older member of the Gerudo tribe. Ganondorf's complete rule didn't happen until Link was a child. But she's a good guy, so to speak, and probably wouldn't have dragged the Gerudo into combat. Gerudo also took on male partners of Hyrule to continue their race.

Yes I did, also.

And hundreds of years between MC and OoT making it more likely there was a war?

How about untold ages behind a game that could be first?

So, Creation -> OoT and MC -> OoT.

How is it more likely that there was a war between the races between MC -> OoT, even though there were no games portraying the Unifying War?

"Thank you."

You're very welcome.

"Also, if the flood had caused the desert to become a swamp, why is lake Hylia so small? Why is there an established graveyard and other ruins in a freshly deflooded area? (this is assuming you're arguing a resurface line)"

Lake Hylia is so small because there is quite a lot of drainage going on. This points to the possibility that drainage was actually needed; old Lake Hylia had no such emptying system. Also, if you're going to bring Twilight Princess into play, Lake Hylia was certainly much farther to the east in TP, which is coincidentally where Lake Hylia is in Minish Cap. So if Minish Cap is first, then the lake started on the east, moved all the way southwest, then moved to the center of Hyrule?

And the graveyard, oh ho ho, I have you here. The graveyard in Minish Cap is situated directly to the west of Hyrule Castle, but in Ocarina of Time, the graveyard is to the west of Hyrule Castle, in Kakariko Village, because the land directly west of Hyrule castle is a giant landmass where a graveyard could not be situated. So, assuming Minish Cap is first, they moved the graveyard and put a big pile of land on top of it, which would seem a bit pointless.

Incidentally, where would Mt. Crenel be in Ocarina of Time if Minish Cap is first?

"it's not just script; it's everything."

I know it uses similar things to Ocarina of Time, but you have to keep in mind that OoX were supposed to be LoZ and AoL remakes.

The game was originally planned to be a trilogy known as the "Triforce Trilogy", in which two of the games were to be remakes of the original NES titles.

Themes were taken from OoT and similar things, but at its core, it reeks of LoZ. LoZ and AoL have been theorized to be later on in the timeline, perhaps at a place that the beginning scene has its place.

"my thoughts on the subject: The Light force is the condensed power of the royal family while the TF is the condensed power of the goddesses. Iin tMC the TF's power is still a secret, but the Light force is known well enough to attract Vaati."

So the Triforce, whose visage is strewn across Hyrule Castle, is a secret, but becomes well known later, whereas the Light Force is well known to EVERYONE initially, becomes completely a secret later on, even though the Royal Family's line continues? I find this pretty unlikely.

"There is no mention of desertion or that the castle was ruined; it seems to suggest instead that Link was a long-time citizen of Hyrule and familiar with the castle to some extent."

The Castle is surrounded by vegetation, and there is no civilization visible beyond the castle, nor is there anyone guarding the Triforce, the ultimate power of the Goddesses, which is in plain sight.

"The mountains are clearly in the right place, and the cliff upon which Link sits is near the desert. That is all that the intro picture shows."

I'll give you this one, the cliff Link rides onto in OoX could be the mountains in LttP, but this would still not prove whether or not that the castle in the OoX intro is different from the one in OoT.

Since OoT's castle was destroyed at the end of the game, could they have rebuilt it as WW's castle? It's unlikely they'd remake it exactly the same as the old OoT one, and it'd explain the architectural differences.

You raise a good point. I kind of forgot that the castle was destroyed in OoT's adult timeline.

" Besides, are you implying that the water crashing into Old Hyrule at the end of WW didn't destroy everything? Are you implying that Daphnes wish to the TF (that old Hyrule would remain buried) didn't come true?"

It apparently didn't destroy everything. Hyrule Castle's still around and the mountains are still there. And if MC is after a raising of Old Hyrule, it's always a possibility everyone rebuilt everything. Or if it's just New Hyrule.

And he didn't make a wish to make Hyrule buried forever.

These were his words.

Wash away this ancient

land of Hyrule!

He just said "wash it away", not, "keep it buried forever". A reraising would be possible under this wish.

wait... Veil falls = OoT Death Mountain supports tMC first... huh...

Explain.

Also, Capcom didn't know about WW's ending when they made OoX.

Maybe Nintendo thought it would be a good idea to explain why OoX started like it did. Borrowing elements from a previous game?

if we take some of your statements regarding OoX and tMC's relationship to OoT and WW, then OoX has to come right after resurfacing, and somehow Link found the TF in Old Hyrule Castle. You go on to say that tMC takes place in the same place, but no one knows of the TF?

I actually meant to say that the land, whatever it may be, found by Link and Tetra's crew, was far away from Old Hyrule, hence, they've been sailing for quite awhile, now, and they've long cleared the map boundaries of WW. Old Hyrule could remain long gone, but New Hyrule could be where Minish Cap takes place.

"The fact that we can exchange views like this with very little actual proof seems to imply that there is not enough information to completely prove either side: the point I'm trying to make."

I believe I have more than adequate proof. However, you're debunking them, not with counter evidence, but with your opinions. "This seems too insignificant to be usable in this discussion". "I don't think Nintendo meant for this to mean this".

[...] and that Capcom was trying to create a good game that didn't rock the boat too much by sticking to past excursions

I don't see anything that implies Capcom wasn't trying to "rock the boat". It does borrow elements from previous games. Characters from OoT (Malon, Talon, Carpenters) WW (King of Hyrule) similar style to WW/FSA, basic mechanics, (Collect x artifacts, do something, collect x more artifacts) items (Roc's Cape, Mysterious Seashell, etc.) and so forth.

That's what I meant when I asked that question.

Sahaqiel

Edited 17 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Slagr 0]

"It's in the game; it's canon. If Soul Calibur made a Zelda stage with a library that had a book labeled, "Triumph Forks", then it wouldn't be. But it is.

Sure, if the poster says, "Vaati" under it and has the same appearance in every aspect.

I haven't seen the poster you're speaking of, but it's probably not as clear as "Triumph Forks"."

it does not say outright, but no one can translate OoT Hylian and the picture is quite similar.

"If not Lake Hylia, then they could live on land. But oh, wait, there is no fishing trade mentioned in MC. There was a Zora living in a shack in OoA, but he lived near a source of fish. Zora could take this lifestyle on in MC, but Lake Hylia, as your said, is a bit hostile. Hostile waters aren't very known for their fish, as evidenced by Wind Waker."

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

"It doesn't matter if Capcom recycled themes because it's a Zelda game that was made under Nintendo's supervision and approved by them, and is therefore represented in the timeline; you can't just stop and say, "Wait, this official Zelda game's evidence doesn't count because they used themes similar to a previous game."

So, all easter eggs don't matter in a timeline? Alright. So Hena, the fishing hole lady, isn't necessarily a descendant of the fisherman in OoT, even though she has his picture and has similar patterns in behavior as him? And the picture could be any fisherman? All because it has no significance in the story? Thus proving TP isn't necessarily after OoT either?

Alright."

The fisherman's picture is not relevant to the story, but many other elements of TP prove it's after OoT on the CT. The picture is an easter egg, but a much less detrimental one to the timeline, and if it's not canon then the only thing that loses evidence is Hena's genealogy. I'd still say she is related, however, because that egg demonstrates intent. The developers wanted you to think they were related because they included the cutscene, but Triumph Forks has no explanation or support.

""Who said the Fierce War involved EVERY SINGLE RACE fighting each other?"

Who said it didn't?"

You asserted that tMC must be post-Fierce War because Gorons and humans were not fighting. I'm saying they didn't have to fight. As long as the Gerudo and/or Zoras fought the locals, there was a war.

"More likely? Explain.

Yes I did, also.

And hundreds of years between MC and OoT making it more likely there was a war?

How about untold ages behind a game that could be first?

So, Creation -> OoT and MC -> OoT.

How is it more likely that there was a war between the races between MC -> OoT, even though there were no games portraying the Unifying War?"

I think you misread. It's more likely that the humans and Gorons were never hostile to each other but a war occurred when the Gerudo and Zoras arrived than every single race fighting as you suggest.

"Lake Hylia is so small because there is quite a lot of drainage going on. This points to the possibility that drainage was actually needed; old Lake Hylia had no such emptying system. Also, if you're going to bring Twilight Princess into play, Lake Hylia was certainly much farther to the east in TP, which is coincidentally where Lake Hylia is in Minish Cap. So if Minish Cap is first, then the lake started on the east, moved all the way southwest, then moved to the center of Hyrule?"

OoT Lake Hylia had no above ground drainage system. I can't prove it exists, but it honestly has to for the lake to survive. I'll admit I may have made some stupid statements regarding the two locations but I think I've got it:

It appears as though the maps have basically the same features in similar locations, but OoT's Lake has been chopped off. That is probably because the developers needed the map to fit a square and they probably couldn't have fit it in, so they used Zora's domain as tMC's Lake. As for the tMC graveyard, Mt. Crenel has a tendency to have rock slides, correct? Then a rock slide simply covered the graves. The church-ish temple of time would not be out of place next to a cemetery. Hyrule town moved north, leaving Lon Lon Ranch in the middle of the field, and when they arrived at the castle, they rebuilt and <fanfic> dammed the river which ran through Hyrule field in tMC, rerouting it through Mt. Crenel and Castor wilds, forming the Gerudo Valley.</fanfic> Since TP came out after tMC too, and if tMC and OoT are the same place, then TP's map retcons both and I retract the statements directly comparing tMC and TP.

"And the graveyard, oh ho ho, I have you here. The graveyard in Minish Cap is situated directly to the west of Hyrule Castle, but in Ocarina of Time, the graveyard is to the west of Hyrule Castle, in Kakariko Village, because the land directly west of Hyrule castle is a giant landmass where a graveyard could not be situated. So, assuming Minish Cap is first, they moved the graveyard and put a big pile of land on top of it, which would seem a bit pointless."

^^^^^ Different graveyard.

"Incidentally, where would Mt. Crenel be in Ocarina of Time if Minish Cap is first?"

^^^^^

additionally, I've disproved your resurface theory. If, as you say, OoX's intro occurs at WW's castle, where did the mountains come from? You'll recall that there is a giant Lake to the rear of the castle (which was simply flood water that entered the crater under Ganondorf's castle). If Link encountered the front of the castle, there would be no mountains. If tMC is the same place post-flood, then Mt. Crenel and Veil Falls could not exist. If (somehow) there is an unseen entrance to the castle on the backside, then there would be mountains in the background, but the trees would have to be wicked tall to fill up the crater, and all the water would have to drain out. If tMC occurs post-WW in a new location, then the geographical similarities are VERY FREAKING coincidental.

"I know it uses similar things to Ocarina of Time, but you have to keep in mind that OoX were supposed to be LoZ and AoL remakes.

Themes were taken from OoT and similar things, but at its core, it reeks of LoZ. LoZ and AoL have been theorized to be later on in the timeline, perhaps at a place that the beginning scene has its place."

I know that; I've got OoX occurring in the CT while linked to the AT, in the same place as LoZ and AoL, which I have on the AT. In effect, AT Link goes to CT Holynna and returns to the AT during LA. While LA is occurring, a similar resurrection ceremony as in OoX's linked game is taking place in the AT's Holynna (Holodrum=LoZ, Labrynna=part of AoL). It doesn't explain the cameos though.

"So the Triforce, whose visage is strewn across Hyrule Castle, is a secret, but becomes well known later, whereas the Light Force is well known to EVERYONE initially, becomes completely a secret later on, even though the Royal Family's line continues? I find this pretty unlikely."

The TF is also the symbol of the royal family, so it is displayed, but the Light Force is well known UNTIL it is absorbed at the end of the game. If you read the thread, or at least page 1, then the Light Force "reappears" when Bellum attacks Tetra for her residual Force.

"The Castle is surrounded by vegetation, and there is no civilization visible beyond the castle, nor is there anyone guarding the Triforce, the ultimate power of the Goddesses, which is in plain sight."

If Link is situated on the desert's cliffs, then that ring of trees (I forget the name... I last played LttP in 2003) and the trees to the south and west provide adequate foliage. There IS no civilization beyond the castle that would be in view, and the TF isn't guarded at the end of LttP either, so why would they guard it during a time of peace? It's also possible that there is some sort of sealed door that only "the chosen one" or whatever could open, kind of like the stone Link moves at the beginning of OoA. Also, see my explanation against resurfacing above.

"I'll give you this one, the cliff Link rides onto in OoX could be the mountains in LttP, but this would still not prove whether or not that the castle in the OoX intro is different from the one in OoT."

see above once more.

"You raise a good point. I kind of forgot that the castle was destroyed in OoT's adult timeline."

it's strange no one remembered... I know I forgot. It makes a lot of sense and explains a lot of things.

"It apparently didn't destroy everything. Hyrule Castle's still around and the mountains are still there. And if MC is after a raising of Old Hyrule, it's always a possibility everyone rebuilt everything. Or if it's just New Hyrule.

And he didn't make a wish to make Hyrule buried forever.

These were his words."

"He just said "wash it away", not, "keep it buried forever". A reraising would be possible under this wish."

"wash away" implies permanent removal of Hyrule, such that the same castle would never resurface and be discovered.

"Explain."

See: maps

"Maybe Nintendo thought it would be a good idea to explain why OoX started like it did. Borrowing elements from a previous game?"

the intro is rather generic, and I honestly don't know why you interpreted it the way you did.

"I actually meant to say that the land, whatever it may be, found by Link and Tetra's crew, was far away from Old Hyrule, hence, they've been sailing for quite awhile, now, and they've long cleared the map boundaries of WW. Old Hyrule could remain long gone, but New Hyrule could be where Minish Cap takes place."

this seems contradictory to everything you've said before. Anyway, see the map comparison.

"I believe I have more than adequate proof. However, you're debunking them, not with counter evidence, but with your opinions. "This seems too insignificant to be usable in this discussion". "I don't think Nintendo meant for this to mean this"."

More than adequate? no.

opinions? maybe, until now I believe.

Nintendo's intent is worth more than the storyline*, and worth WAY more than easter eggs. If they had designed tMC to be post-WW, they probably would have made it more obvious, or at least less ambiguous.

"I don't see anything that implies Capcom wasn't trying to "rock the boat". It does borrow elements from previous games. Characters from OoT (Malon, Talon, Carpenters) WW (King of Hyrule) similar style to WW/FSA, basic mechanics, (Collect x artifacts, do something, collect x more artifacts) items (Roc's Cape, Mysterious Seashell, etc.) and so forth."

There was never a water-based octorok in a handheld, or even a 2D game at the time. It would have taken some effort to redesign a common enemy for a side-story game, and it might seem ambitious as a third party to stray from Nintendo's precedent.

*The Seal War was originally OoT despite inconsistencies, but may have changed to FSA despite inconsistencies.

Slagr

Edited 18 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)