Forming a more perfect timeline theory

[Sahaqiel 1232]

"it does not say outright, but no one can translate OoT Hylian and the picture is quite similar."

I'm interested. Where was the picture first located in OoT?

Also, Old Hylian has been seen to be a syllabic language. I'm sure there's an interpretation of it buried somewhere. For instance, on a Lon-Lon Milk crate in OoT, you can see characters that repeat each other; quite easily, you could interpret this as the Old Hylian was of writing, "Lon-Lon". The first character being "Lo" (Or "Ro", for that matter...) and the second character being, "n".

"I'm not sure what you're saying here."

I'm sorry; I heavily edited some stuff after I saw you and a couple other guys leave the thread. My meaning is a bit less vague now, but I meant to point out that hostile waters leads to lack of fish. Lack of fish seemed to occur during WW, the only really recorded time where waters were too inhospitable for regular fish. And if what you're saying is true and MC Lake Hylia is Zora's Domain, then it would be kind of hard to believe.

"The fisherman's picture is not relevant to the story, but many other elements of TP prove it's after OoT on the CT. The picture is an easter egg, but a much less detrimental one to the timeline, and if it's not canon then the only thing that loses evidence is Hena's genealogy. I'd still say she is related, however, because that egg demonstrates intent. The developers wanted you to think they were related because they included the cutscene, but Triumph Forks has no explanation or support."

Included what cutscene? Also, sure, it demonstrates intent.

But I don't know what else you can call "TRIUMPH FORKS" other than intent. Especially since it's in a library, and for some reason, everything in the library is written in Modern Hylian. "Tarai to hosu" being the Japanese version of the Triforce's (Toraifosu) misconception, equivalent to our "Triumph forks", written, among other books, in modern Hylian that got its start in Wind Waker.

"It appears as though the maps have basically the same features in similar locations, but OoT's Lake has been chopped off."

Actually, if you rotate it clockwise, the Minish Cap map matches up almost perfectly with the OoT map. Lake Hylia is still Lake Hylia, while Veil Falls could be Zora's Domain, which is where I slipped up again. (Sorry, I get confused easily) Mt. Crenel is Death Mountain, Veil Falls makes more sense as Zora's Domain. The only thing really out of place is where Hyrule Castle is; if the map was intentionally a counterclockwise rotation of the OoT map, (And it makes more sense for it to be) then Hyrule Castle was moved east for some reason or another.

"^^^^^ Different graveyard."

See above.

"^^^^^"

See above.

"You asserted that tMC must be post-Fierce War because Gorons and humans were not fighting. I'm saying they didn't have to fight. As long as the Gerudo and/or Zoras fought the locals, there was a war."

Indeed, Gerudo and Zora are the only ones really associated with racial tension with Hyrule, other than the brief period in TP where the Gorons became isolationists. However, read my post again; I doubt Gerudo were part of the Unifying War. (It was an edited part.)

In addition, while we're talking of Gorons, their dwindling numbers cannot be attributed to them just being in a different place; I know you didn't imply it, but I'd like to bring it up.

045) Goron - These rock - and iron-eaters once lived on Mount Crenel in Western Hyrule. Now their numbers are few, and they live quietly in a cave.

Not only did they once live on a place that is logically Death Mountain, but their numbers are stated to be few. The use of the word "now" implies they were once numerous. In Ocarina of Time, the Gorons were attracted to Death Mountain because of all the ores and valuable minerals they needed to survive, being rock/iron eaters and all. However, why would they leave a place so sacred to them? In Twilight Princess, the translated Japanese text apparently refers to Death Mountain as "The Holy Land of the Gorons", "The Holy Land" only being applied to the Sacred Realm previous to this. The only feasible reason they would leave such a place is deficiency of food, as evidenced by the Gorons' dispair in Ocarina of Time when Dodongo Cavern was overrun.

"OoT Lake Hylia had no above ground drainage system. I can't prove it exists, but it honestly has to for the lake to survive."

Yeah, I was just throwing you a curveball. However, it's much more prominent in Minish Cap and drains off to some unspecified location. This is just blind speculation, but there might be some sort of drainage in the Water Temple; it has a complex system for raising and lowering the water level.

(Also, I'm going to stop debating OoX's castle scene, maybe temporarily. However, I just feel like the current discussion is enough and I'm not drawing meaning from anything you're saying.)

"The TF is also the symbol of the royal family, so it is displayed, but the Light Force is well known UNTIL it is absorbed at the end of the game. If you read the thread, or at least page 1, then the Light Force "reappears" when Bellum attacks Tetra for her residual Force."

The Triforce isn't the Royal Family's symbol; it's the bird with outstretched wings and a head. It sometimes has a Triforce crest on it, but I would say that probably came around when the Triforce was actually known. Like during a title early on in the series. Like Ocarina of Time.

""wash away" implies permanent removal of Hyrule, such that the same castle would never resurface and be discovered."

Even though I'm going to stop debating the scene for now, "wash away" just implies that the bubble holding the water out was burst. The only one who's clearly implying it was to wash it away forever is you. Burying Hyrule beneath the ocean doesn't matter. What is buried can be salvaged. Zelda goes into many things, like mythology from Norse (Epona) to literature (Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland). Hyrule seems to be in an "Lost continent of Atlantis" situation. After all, it IS a lost continent, and it IS under the ocean.

"this seems contradictory to everything you've said before. Anyway, see the map comparison."

Why don't you explain things? I see no contradiction. Link and Tetra found a new place, they settled it, there's the setting for Minish Cap.

But Minish Cap could still be a resurfaced Old Hyrule.

"Nintendo's intent is worth more than the storyline*, and worth WAY more than easter eggs. If they had designed tMC to be post-WW, they probably would have made it more obvious, or at least less ambiguous."

Dude, seriously, you're uhguhahlsdkfjdksa;

I'd like to know how you can interpret exactly what Nintendo intended with your psychic mind-reading powers, and how you as one person who has no affiliation to Nintendo can somehow underimpose the importance of easter eggs they personally place into the game.

"There was never a water-based octorok in a handheld, or even a 2D game at the time. It would have taken some effort to redesign a common enemy for a side-story game, and it might seem ambitious as a third party to stray from Nintendo's precedent."

Difficult to redesign? I thought Gibos would be hard to redesign. :| But they pulled it off, even though they look like they're wearing a full-body cast. Believe me, if they wanted water-based Octoroks, they probably could have done it.

Sahaqiel

Edited 19 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Teto 2609]

"it does not say outright, but no one can translate OoT Hylian and the picture is quite similar."

I'm interested. Where was the picture first located in OoT?

Also, Old Hylian has been seen to be a syllabic language. I'm sure there's an interpretation of it buried somewhere. For instance, on a Lon-Lon Milk crate in OoT, you can see characters that repeat each other; quite easily, you could interpret this as the Old Hylian was of writing, "Lon-Lon". The first character being "Lo" (Or "Ro", for that matter...) and the second character being, "n".

Possible Ocarina of Time cameo

In Ocarina of Time, a possible cameo of Vaati can be seen. As an adult, if Link enters the Shooting Gallery in Kakariko Village, looking to the left will show three posters on the wall. These three posters contain an image of a creature strongly resembling Vaati in his wind mage form. However, this might have been a reference to other enemies, like Queen Gohma, who are characterized by their single eye. Furthermore, Ocarina of Time was released roughly five years prior to Vaati's first appearance, in Four Swords (although it is possable Nintendo could of had the character created before hand but never used it). Also, another possible cameo can be seen in the Spirit Temple, above a Hylian inscription on the Eastern wall in the room containing the 'Anubis' enemies. It is possible that this is in fact a cameo of Dethl, the final boss from Link's Awakening, which would fit since Link's Awakening was released prior to Ocarina of Time.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

(Read the rest of my post, please.)

Sahaqiel

[Slagr 0]

"I'm interested. Where was the picture first located in OoT?

Also, Old Hylian has been seen to be a syllabic language. I'm sure there's an interpretation of it buried somewhere. For instance, on a Lon-Lon Milk crate in OoT, you can see characters that repeat each other; quite easily, you could interpret this as the Old Hylian was of writing, "Lon-Lon". The first character being "Lo" (Or "Ro", for that matter...) and the second character being, "n"."

there is no further translation. The poster appears on the back wall of both shooting galleries of OoT. You have to go into 1st-person to see it.

"I'm sorry; I heavily edited some stuff after I saw you and a couple other guys leave the thread. My meaning is a bit less vague now, but I meant to point out that hostile waters leads to lack of fish. Lack of fish seemed to occur during WW, the only really recorded time where waters were too inhospitable for regular fish. And if what you're saying is true and MC Lake Hylia is Zora's Domain, then it would be kind of hard to believe."

we don't know one way or another if there was fish. OoT is the only game everyone agrees is before WW, and it was 3D whereas tMC is 2D. I'd also go so far as to say it's irrelevant, as only OoT and TP (and LA I guess) have fish.

"Included what cutscene? Also, sure, it demonstrates intent.

But I don't know what else you can call "TRIUMPH FORKS" other than intent. Especially since it's in a library, and for some reason, everything in the library is written in Modern Hylian. "Tarai to hosu" being the Japanese version of the Triforce's (Toraifosu) misconception, equivalent to our "Triumph forks", written, among other books, in modern Hylian that got its start in Wind Waker."

the cutscene where Hena says she's related and scratches her back. As for the New Hylian language, please see my list of recycled themes from the last major game.

"Actually, if you rotate it clockwise, the Minish Cap map matches up almost perfectly with the OoT map. Lake Hylia is still Lake Hylia, while Veil Falls could be Zora's Domain, which is where I slipped up again. (Sorry, I get confused easily) Mt. Crenel is Death Mountain, Veil Falls makes more sense as Zora's Domain. The only thing really out of place is where Hyrule Castle is; if the map was intentionally a counterclockwise rotation of the OoT map, (And it makes more sense for it to be) then Hyrule Castle was moved east for some reason or another.

"

you can believe that if you want. I usually prefer north to stay north.

"Indeed, Gerudo and Zora are the only ones really associated with racial tension with Hyrule, other than the brief period in TP where the Gorons became isolationists. However, read my post again; I doubt Gerudo were part of the Unifying War. (It was an edited part.)

"

That edit seemed a little fictiony, but Gerudo didn't have to fight Hylians either. If Gerudo and Gorons fought, Hylians and Zora fought, and whatever else, it's still a war.

"In addition, while we're talking of Gorons, their dwindling numbers cannot be attributed to them just being in a different place; I know you didn't imply it, but I'd like to bring it up.

Not only did they once live on a place that is logically Death Mountain, but their numbers are stated to be few. The use of the word "now" implies they were once numerous. In Ocarina of Time, the Gorons were attracted to Death Mountain because of all the ores and valuable minerals they needed to survive, being rock/iron eaters and all. However, why would they leave a place so sacred to them? In Twilight Princess, the translated Japanese text apparently refers to Death Mountain as "The Holy Land of the Gorons", "The Holy Land" only being applied to the Sacred Realm previous to this. The only feasible reason they would leave such a place is deficiency of food, as evidenced by the Gorons' dispair in Ocarina of Time when Dodongo Cavern was overrun. "

I'll now bring something into the debate regarding FSA. Have you noticed that FSA's map is closer to OoT than tMC is to FSA or OoT? If the 3 are the same place, then it's unlikely the name of the mountain would have changed. It's too late to come up with anything better.

"I'm not drawing meaning from anything you're saying."

=(

"The Triforce isn't the Royal Family's symbol; it's the bird with outstretched wings and a head. It sometimes has a Triforce crest on it, but I would say that probably came around when the Triforce was actually known. Like during a title early on in the series. Like Ocarina of Time."

take a look above the front door of tMC's castle.

"Even though I'm going to stop debating the scene for now, "wash away" just implies that the bubble holding the water out was burst. The only one who's clearly implying it was to wash it away forever is you. Burying Hyrule beneath the ocean doesn't matter. What is buried can be salvaged. Zelda goes into many things, like mythology from Norse (Epona) to literature (Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland). Hyrule seems to be in an "Lost continent of Atlantis" situation. After all, it IS a lost continent, and it IS under the ocean."

um... ok. tMC still can't be WW's Hyrule risen because of the huge lake/mountain situation.

"Why don't you explain things? I see no contradiction. Link and Tetra found a new place, they settled it, there's the setting for Minish Cap.

But Minish Cap could still be a resurfaced Old Hyrule."

Why don't you read everything? everything you've said I've answered, including this. you had been arguing for resurfacing, but then you said it was a different place. Now you say it could be both. Like I've said, resurfacing can't happen, and the maps are far too similar. Looks like I'm going CT.

"Dude, seriously, you're uhguhahlsdkfjdksa;

I'd like to know how you can interpret exactly what Nintendo intended with your psychic mind-reading powers, and how you as one person who has no affiliation to Nintendo can somehow underimpose the importance of easter eggs they personally place into the game."

it's called interpretation. Ever consider that OoT and LttP are the same place because of the MS in the woods? Do you think that now, when you consider TP's MS location and the fact that LttP's woods are where OoT's ToT was? This is an example of intent. It's supposed to be the same place, and some people didn't get it, so they bridged the gap by supporting the connection. I also appear to seriously be an indecipherable conglomeration of text.

"Difficult to redesign? I thought Gibos would be hard to redesign. :| But they pulled it off, even though they look like they're wearing a full-body cast. Believe me, if they wanted water-based Octoroks, they probably could have done it."

sure they could have, but making something from land-based to water based is more ambitious than revamping an enemy's graphics while leaving the rest pretty much the same. Besides, do you think Nintendo said to Capcom, "ok, there's the game we want you to make. OH! and make sure you make the octoroks aquatic. It's very important to the timeline." (I don't think they would have said that.) If Nintendo didn't specifically instruct them to make a change from the previous successful games, then they wouldn't dare make a change on their own. That's known to turn out badly. (see: Philip's CDi)

Sorry about the wait, I'm really busy this weekend.

Slagr

Edited 19 Apr 2009 by Slagr (see edit history)

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Sorry about the wait, I'm really busy this weekend.

For srsly, I was waiting in such impatience.

Spent like four hours searching texts dumps and digging through maps.

... Wait.

OK, really?

As for the New Hylian language, please see my list of recycled themes from the last major game.

You're not accepting any proof I hand to you. I've accepted all the possibilities of stuff you've given me, but you just turn it down because it's not good enough for you, despite being valid, canon information. You won't look beyond the possibility that Minish Cap isn't first, even though I give you something that is basically like God coming down to the earth and saying, "Look! Come forth and see! The Minish Cap is using a writing system that was only put into mass use after the events of Ocarina of Time! This has significance!!"

Octoroks, geography, quotes, population density, language, lore, all thrown to the wind because you personally judge them not worthy of significance. If you can interpret "Wash away" as "Drowned forever under the ocean without any possible chance of getting out permanently for all eternity", why won't you extend the courtesy of letting me interpret something much much clearer than that vague mess of an interpretation? You're not countering with evidence at all; you're passing judgment. If you attribute all evidence that MC is after OoT as "recycling themes", then the whole argument is pointless. Would it have mattered if the Minish Cap was released after Twilight Princess?

I'll now bring something into the debate regarding FSA. Have you noticed that FSA's map is closer to OoT than tMC is to FSA or OoT? If the 3 are the same place, then it's unlikely the name of the mountain would have changed. It's too late to come up with anything better.

What does this solve?

"take a look above the front door of tMC's castle."

Yeah? But you still have yet to explain how it would become their symbol if they have no idea what the Triforce is. Unless you're implying they made the Triforce up later.

Sahaqiel

Edited 20 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Slagr 0]

You're not accepting any proof I hand to you. I've accepted all the possibilities of stuff you've given me, but you just turn it down because it's not good enough for you, despite being valid, canon information. You won't look beyond the possibility that Minish Cap isn't first, even though I give you something that is basically like God coming down to the earth and saying, "Look! Come forth and see! The Minish Cap is using a writing system that was only put into mass use after the events of Ocarina of Time! This has significance!!"

Octoroks, geography, quotes, population density, language, lore, all thrown to the wind because you personally judge them not worthy of significance. If you can interpret "Wash away" as "Drowned forever under the ocean without any possible chance of getting out permanently for all eternity", why won't you extend the courtesy of letting me interpret something much much clearer than that vague mess of an interpretation? You're not countering with evidence at all; you're passing judgment. If you attribute all evidence that MC is after OoT as "recycling themes", then the whole argument is pointless. Would it have mattered if the Minish Cap was released after Twilight Princess?

I'm sorry if the evidence you're presenting is not definitive. If there is the possibility of an alternate explanation to something, like the New Hylian in tMC, then it does not prove anything. Think about it: OoT's script is indecipherable (except Lon Lon), and New Hylian has direct translations. Why would Capcom dig up a 7 year old game and program in symbols that don't mean anything when a shiny new game with meaningful text is sitting in their Gamecubes?

What does this solve?

it came up on a different forum in reference to this same debate we're in. If tMC is post-flood, it presumably occurs before FSA in the same place. OoT and FSA/LttP have many similarities. If all the places are the same, then the whole FSS and LttP gets thrown on the CT. We don't have to discuss this if you don't want to, I just couldn't think of a better comeback. it was late.

Yeah? But you still have yet to explain how it would become their symbol if they have no idea what the Triforce is. Unless you're implying they made the Triforce up later.

The TF was made when the Goddesses left Hyrule after creation. the royal family has arguably always had it. You could always discount the symbol in tMC as recycling WW stuff though if you wanted.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Old Hylian was also a syllabary. It had meaning. However, it was really angular and more suited to carving into stone.

Graves in Twilight Princess had Old Hylian on them, however, the script they used was a Hylian-roman alphabet hybrid. OoT was like four games back.

Tell me how this situation is different.

Also, I have to go to sleep, so I'll respond to the rest some other time.

Sahaqiel

[Teto 2609]

Okay, I want to know one thing.

This is a picture I found of Great Demon Vaati. What I want to know is: Isn't he wearing the Fused Shadow?

If this is the fused shadow, then I'm even more confused. The fused shadow is an old magic, right? There was no Triforce in Minish Cap was there? So wouldn't that place it behind Twilight Princess in which it was named an old power and the Triforce a newer one?

I'll leave it to Sahaqiel to clear this up for me.

Edited 21 Apr 2009 by Rain (see edit history)

[Sahaqiel 1232]

If that's part of a manga, it's not canon and should be disregarded.

[Teto 2609]

Oh right. It never mentioned if it was the manga or not though, so I got a bit freaked out for a second. Thanks for that, Sahaqiel.

[Slagr 0]

Old Hylian was also a syllabary. It had meaning. However, it was really angular and more suited to carving into stone.

Graves in Twilight Princess had Old Hylian on them, however, the script they used was a Hylian-roman alphabet hybrid. OoT was like four games back.

Tell me how this situation is different.

Also, I have to go to sleep, so I'll respond to the rest some other time.

Sahaqiel

I was not aware of the Old Hylian translation. Regardless, the Vaati image is still indecipherable. As for the graves in TP, OoT is the direct prequel. The graves probably date back to that time. As for the New TP Hylian, it's an alphabet, so it has to be translated twice to Japanese, so I don't know how canon it can be. As for why they developed it, Nintendo is the final boss; they can make drastic changes like that. Capcom did not want to rewrite the language or wasn't allowed to, and didn't use OoT script because WW's was more recent.

tl;dr, Capcom used the latest language, Nintendo reused OoT script to strengthen the connection to TP, and TP Hylian was made because Nintendo can.

[Sahaqiel 1232]

As for the New TP Hylian, it's an alphabet, so it has to be translated twice to Japanese, so I don't know how canon it can be.

:|

"Canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is any material that is considered to be "genuine". Basically, something that is "canon" means that it is something that "actually happened" in that fictional universe."

Just thought you might need a definition.

I'll reply to the rest, as I said, a bit later.

Sahaqiel

Edited 21 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)

[Teto 2609]

Once you've had time to recover I presume?

Also, what is the Hylian language. From what I've seen it's less a language than a code. Hylian symbols replacing human letters but spelling it out as it would be in English.

Just want to ask a simple question here, you know?

[Arcane 12]

Supposedly, at least for New Hylian (?) their words are different too. Not just the characters. There was a huge list of Hylian words.

Of course, that site was the only place I've seen something like that, so although the guy who runs the site is no noob, I believe it may not be canon.

I'll try to find it, but it's probably just made up stuff. I really don't know... :/

[Sahaqiel 1232]

Hylian is more like a code, yeah. It's a syllabary and things in the Hylian language are translated into Japanese. However, the Hylian script changed with time. In Ocarina of Time, it was really angular. This script is called by the theorist community, "Old Hylian". Most, if not, all the characters, could be fit perfectly in a square. In Wind Waker, it was curved and more suited to being written with a brush. Referred to as, "Modern Hylian". Twilight Princess' system was based on the Roman alphabet, (a, b, c, d, etc. as opposed to, a, e, i, o, u, ka, ke, ki, ko, ku, etc.) Despite this, everything was written in their original forms anyway. Kakariko remained Kakariko, and I think most other things were also still in Japanese.

Also, Kasuto.net has a "Hylian language" project, which doesn't make much sense and it's totally fictional and noncanon. Despite Hylian script being a syllabary, he had weird spellings of things that wouldn't match with the syllabary.

As far as we know, only monsters' and peoples' names are inheritely Hylian words. As for that, it can't be completely proven they're totally Hylian. They could be Goron-language or something.

Sahaqiel

Edited 21 Apr 2009 by Sahaqiel (see edit history)